Author Topic: Materialism in India  (Read 2209 times)

Sriram

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Materialism in India
« on: January 14, 2017, 02:17:53 PM »
Hi everyone,

This might interest some of you.

The Charavakas (Lokayata) philosophy of  600 BCE and earlier, was a materialistic & atheistic philosophy,  probably one of the earliest ones in the world. It continued to have influence on Hindu, Jain and Buddhist philosophies till much later. It is even today considered as an important school of Indian philosophy.

Here is an article on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka

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Charvaka (IAST: Cārvāka), originally known as Lokāyata and Bṛhaspatya, is the ancient school of Indian materialism. Charvaka holds direct perception, empiricism, and conditional inference as proper sources of knowledge, embraces philosophical skepticism and rejects Vedas, Vedic ritualism and supernaturalism.

One of the widely studied principles of Charvaka philosophy was its rejection of inference as a means to establish valid, universal knowledge, and metaphysical truths.[7][8] In other words, the Charvaka epistemology states that whenever one infers a truth from a set of observations or truths, one must acknowledge doubt; inferred knowledge is conditional.[9]

The Charvaka epistemology holds perception as the primary and proper source of knowledge, while inference is held as prone to being either right or wrong and therefore conditional or invalid.[9][45] Perceptions are of two types, for Charvaka, external and internal. External perception is described as that arising from the interaction of five senses and worldly objects, while internal perception is described by this school as that of inner sense, the mind.[9] Inference is described as deriving a new conclusion and truth from one or more observations and previous truths. To Charvakas, inference is useful but prone to error, as inferred truths can never be without doubt.[46] Inference is good and helpful, it is the validity of inference that is suspect – sometimes in certain cases and often in others. To the Charvakas there were no reliable means by which the efficacy of inference as a means of knowledge could be established.[7]

Since none of the means of knowing were found to be worthy to establish the invariable connection between middle term and predicate, Charvakas concluded that the inference could not be used to ascertain metaphysical truths. Thus, to Charvakas, the step which the mind takes from the knowledge of something to infer the knowledge of something else could be accounted for by its being based on a former perception or by its being in error. Cases where inference was justified by the result were seen only to be mere coincidences.[51]

Therefore, Charvakas denied metaphysical concepts like reincarnation, an extracorporeal soul, the efficacy of religious rites, other worlds (heaven and hell), fate and accumulation of merit or demerit through the performance of certain actions.[38] Charvakas also rejected the use of supernatural causes to describe natural phenomena. To them all natural phenomena was produced spontaneously from the inherent nature of things.[52]

The fire is hot, the water cold, refreshing cool the breeze of morn;
By whom came this variety ? from their own nature was it born.[52]

Charvaka school of Hinduism did not believe in karma, rebirth or an afterlife. To them, all attributes that represented a person, such a thinness, fatness etc., resided in the body. The Sarvasiddhanta Samgraha states the Charvaka position as follows,[53]

There is no other world other than this;
There is no heaven and no hell;
The realm of Shiva and like regions,
are invented by stupid imposters.

— Sarvasiddhanta Samgraha, Verse 8[53]

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Along with this form of early 'scientism', many other philosophical schools flourished that proposed many alternative metaphysical ideas. It has largely been left to the people to accept or reject whatever they wanted.

For information.

Cheers.

Sriram
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 04:45:00 PM by Sriram »

torridon

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Re: Materialism in India
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2017, 06:45:21 PM »
That is remarkably forward and unaffected thinking for 600BC I would say.  It goes to show rational scepticism has deep roots, it has just been mostly drowned out by the advocates of theism until recently.

Sriram

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Re: Materialism in India
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 01:23:00 PM »
That is remarkably forward and unaffected thinking for 600BC I would say.  It goes to show rational scepticism has deep roots, it has just been mostly drowned out by the advocates of theism until recently.


I posted this philosophy precisely to point out that what is today known as 'scientific thinking' is really not all that new or revolutionary. For centuries some people have believed that only what we can perceive through our five senses is reality and anything beyond that cannot be known...and is therefore of no concern to us. It is almost a default position, I guess.

But other schools of philosophy (not just religious beliefs) have also existed along side, that have had different views and have taught that there is a reality beyond what can be known through the five senses.  Ideas of the Self being eternal and non corporeal and which can be sensed within ourselves through introspection, Yoga and meditative techniques.....have been far more respected and accepted.


« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 01:28:03 PM by Sriram »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Materialism in India
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 02:02:23 PM »
That is remarkably forward and unaffected thinking for 600BC I would say.  It goes to show rational scepticism has deep roots, it has just been mostly drowned out by the advocates of theism until recently.
However the verse quoted by Sriram is itself one great hymn of Faith.
As is the suggestion of a great revival of rational scepticism you seem to be suggesting rather than a modern neotenisation and hedonism and anti philosophism.

Shaker

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Re: Materialism in India
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 06:48:29 PM »
However the verse quoted by Sriram is itself one great hymn of Faith.
As is the suggestion of a great revival of rational scepticism you seem to be suggesting rather than a modern neotenisation and hedonism and anti philosophism.
That's a passel of big words you don't understand, Vlad!
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

trippymonkey

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Re: Materialism in India
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 02:52:53 AM »
What's a passel?????

Shaker

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Re: Materialism in India
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 08:57:24 AM »
A whole bunch of stuff!
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

jakswan

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Re: Materialism in India
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 10:20:03 AM »
I posted this philosophy precisely to point out that what is today known as 'scientific thinking' is really not all that new or revolutionary. For centuries some people have believed that only what we can perceive through our five senses is reality and anything beyond that cannot be known...and is therefore of no concern to us. It is almost a default position, I guess.

No that is not 'scientific thinking', we can't sense atoms but science still studies them.

Quote
But other schools of philosophy (not just religious beliefs) have also existed along side, that have had different views and have taught that there is a reality beyond what can be known through the five senses.  Ideas of the Self being eternal and non corporeal and which can be sensed within ourselves through introspection, Yoga and meditative techniques.....have been far more respected and accepted.

Yeah people have believed in all sots of bullshit.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Udayana

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Re: Materialism in India
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 10:50:03 AM »
No that is not 'scientific thinking', we can't sense atoms but science still studies them.

Yeah people have believed in all sots of bullshit.

We can now see atoms using electron tunnelling microscopes.

Sriram's statement is not very nuanced, but all possibilities were proposed and explored intelligently just as they were by the ancient Chinese, Egyptians, Persians and Greeks, but of-course the basic data was limited to what had been found at the time using the technology available to them.

Surely anything and everything is "bullshit" if you want to look at it that way? But it's fertile stuff that can be useful.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Sriram

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Re: Materialism in India
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2017, 07:48:18 AM »


Hi everyone,

The point is that many people over the centuries have had this material philosophy where they cannot accept anything other than what they can sense directly (or through instruments). It is a default position almost like a child not accepting what it cannot see or hear. It is like stating the obvious.  It does not require insight.

Many other people on the other hand are able to 'sense' or perceive realities other than through the five senses. This is insight.

It could be some sort of a inbuilt mental programming  that makes this sort of thinking possible as also the opposite type. Maybe we are fighting over some sort of a natural tendency that each one of us has to view and perceive the world in certain ways.

Its not really about THE correct way. It about the only way different people CAN perceive the world.   

Cheers.

Sriram