Correlation

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Here's a correlation
Adherence to God falling

Will to act in a way that makes others lives worse increases.

[floo]

Here's a correlation
Adherence to God falling

Will to act in a way that makes others lives worse increases.

Adherence to god can make some people abuse others in the name of their god!

[Gordon]

Here's a correlation
Adherence to God falling

Will to act in a way that makes others lives worse increases.

Here's another: global temperature up, pirates down.

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing (or in this case proper measurements and use of statistics, and even then correlation ain't cause and effect).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Here's another: global temperature up, pirates down.

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing (or in this case proper measurements and use of statistics, and even then correlation ain't cause and effect).

Of course and I suppose you'd like us to believe there was never any link between correlation and cause?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Adherence to god can make some people abuse others in the name of their god!

A post ignoring such behaviour in the general secular population.

[Gordon]

Of course and I suppose you'd like us to believe there was never any link between correlation and cause.

Correlation is association, Vlad: nothing more and nothing less. It can be very useful statistically of course but to calculate it you need data, which implies a method, and you can't just chuck things together willy-nilly. 

[jeremyp]

Here's a correlation
Adherence to God falling

Will to act in a way that makes others lives worse increases.

What are your sources that the second of those is true?

[SusanDoris]

I think the OP should say there seems to be a coincidence , not a correlation. One of the beliefs held by many religions has been that some sort of divine punishment would follow any misdemeanour, ranging from the smallest to the largest, if not on earth, then after death.  As more and more people have realised, this is rubbish and as far as I know the principal church leaders no longer assert such things, so those who wish to commit crimes know that they will be punished by real people, parents, and if necessary, the law, and that is only if they get caught. It will, like all things connected with the lessening of religious beliefs, not happen in a hurry, and not until people realise they have to take full responsibility for their actions. As soon as it is also realised that we humans can take all the credit for everything done well and not ascribe it to God/god/s, the better and faster it will happen.

[torridon]

Here's a correlation
Adherence to God falling

Will to act in a way that makes others lives worse increases.

That is what Freud feared is it not ? He believed that the rise of atheism would mark the beginning of the end of human civilisation.  With no god to fear, people would turn to base desires and self interest.  Maybe he underestimated humans though.  Sociological studies reveal the opposite correlation, with high levels of religious observance corresponding with high levels of crime at national and state levels.  Sweden, for instance, one of the most atheist countries has been among the most welcoming to refugees and migrants and they are among the most generous in terms of donating to charitable causes.  For another example consider the environmental movement - this is concern for the wider context of life and for future generations of life and yet it has been spearheaded largely by non-religious groups, and the American religious right are amongst the most prominent climate change deniers.

So your initial assertion is not clear cut I would say. Religions run deeply and widely but core human values run yet more deeply than any religious instinct.

[jeremyp]

Of course and I suppose you'd like us to believe there was never any link between correlation and cause?

No he didn't say that.

Just because this particular correlation (if it is one, see my earlier post) may not have a causal link does not mean that no correlation has a causal link.

[Gordon]

Of course and I suppose you'd like us to believe there was never any link between correlation and cause?

There may be, but the statistical tests used to calculate association aren't measures used to indicate possible cause and effect. 

[Shaker]

That is what Freud feared is it not ? He believed that the rise of atheism would mark the beginning of the end of human civilisation.  With no god to fear, people would turn to base desires and self interest.  Maybe he underestimated humans though.

I'm reasonably well up on Freud; this is news to me. Freud himself was a passionate atheist - anti-theist, even - and The Future of an Illusion looks forward to the end of religious belief. Jung was far more accepting of religious faith; are you thinking of him?

The broader point - that humans are a roiling mass of instinctual drives and desires kept (mostly) in check by social mores - is quite true (in terms of Freud's work at any rate: Civilization and Its Discontents etc.), but I know of nothing in Freud's work to suggest that he thought religion was a, or the, last bulwark against anarchy and raping horses in the streets and what have you. The end of widespread religious belief in a given society /= the end of the society; it means what it means. The rest of your post - Sweden, etc. - gives the lie to that belief.

Religions run deeply and widely but core human values run yet more deeply than any religious instinct.

Absolutely. Because those core values predate any religion. They were here first.

[Aruntraveller]

And meanwhile in the USA that most religious of countries the crime rate is practically undetectable........oh wait a minute...fuck how did I get that so wrong!

[torridon]

I'm reasonably well up on Freud; this is news to me. Freud himself was a passionate atheist - anti-theist, even - and The Future of an Illusion looks forward to the end of religious belief. Jung was far more accepting of religious faith; are you thinking of him?

The broader point - that humans are a roiling mass of instinctual drives and desires kept (mostly) in check by social mores - is quite true (in terms of Freud's work at any rate: Civilization and Its Discontents etc.), but I know of nothing in Freud's work to suggest that he thought religion was a, or the, last bulwark against anarchy and raping horses in the streets and what have you.

Yes he was an atheist and an advocate of such. The section from Wikipedia reproduced below mentions his concerns about these matters :

Freud then examines the issue of whether, without religion, people will feel "exempt from all obligation to obey the precepts of civilization".[11] He notes that "civilization has little to fear from educated people and brain-workers" in whom secular motives for morality replace religious ones; but he acknowledges the existence of "the great mass of the uneducated and oppressed" who may commit murder if not told that God forbids it, and who must be "held down most severely" unless "the relationship between civilization and religion" undergoes "a fundamental revision"

[Shaker]

I hadn't read any of that before (or didn't remember doing so; maybe I repressed it  ). It's disagreeably high-handed, isn't it? Atheism is OK for us, but the great unwashed still need blankie.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What are your sources that the second of those is true?

UK polls
Brexit result

[Shaker]

UK polls
Brexit result

Which polls?

What about the Brexit result?

[torridon]

I hadn't read any of that before (or didn't remember doing so; maybe I repressed it  ). It's disagreeably high-handed, isn't it? Atheism is OK for us, but the great unwashed still need blankie.

Yes it comes across as very patronising now but it does touch on a valid insight.

[Walter]

UK polls
Brexit result

Well, you cant argue with that. I bow to your superior insight.

[Shaker]

Yes it comes across as very patronising now but it does touch on a valid insight.

Do you think he was right, then?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Which polls?

What about the Brexit result?

Support for the anti welfare self interest party.

The Brexit result was apparently a punishment vote.........all very dark, cynical with a tang of cruelty.....a bit like your posts.

[Rhiannon]

I hadn't read any of that before (or didn't remember doing so; maybe I repressed it  ). It's disagreeably high-handed, isn't it? Atheism is OK for us, but the great unwashed still need blankie.

Actually, forget the blankie, he seems to say that the great unwashed are savages who need religion to keep them from committing mass slaughter.

[Shaker]

Support for the anti welfare self interest party.

Isn't that - like Trump's victory - explicable by the existence of ludicrously illogical systems of voting?

The Brexit result was apparently a punishment vote

Apparently according to whom, and punishment of whom?

.........all very dark, cynical with a tang of cruelty.....a bit like your posts.

Thank you. I try 

[Shaker]

Actually, forget the blankie, he seems to say that the great unwashed are savages who need religion to keep them from committing mass slaughter.

As said no doubt by sundry French persons c. 1789.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Isn't that - like Trump's victory - explicable by the existence of ludicrously illogical systems of voting?

Trump I don't know .Britains love for the anti welfare self interest party is undeniable.