Universalism

[Jack Knave]

Are we like rowing boats frantically trying to bail out the rising water of God and failing or will we be successful and stop the leak?

Who made the boats? I blame the boat maker.

[Shaker]

Yes, you have to earn forgiveness, in this warped view.

I do wish somebody had told Desmond Tutu of this. He'd have been a right badass bar steward otherwise. Des "Knuckles" Tutu.

[Alan Burns]

Nonsense.  Of course you can.  I can let go of hurts done to me by others, even if they don't regret it.  What is the point of hanging on to them?

But if your forgiveness is rejected, it is worthless to the recipient.

[Shaker]

But if your forgiveness is rejected, it is worthless to the recipient.

But not to the donor. If I've learnt anything at all about these extraordinary acts of forgiveness briefly alluded to earlier, it's that those who give it - not the recipients - do so in order to live at peace with themselves and not be consumed ever after with anger, vengeance and bitterness.

Doesn't your book say somewhere about forgiveness to seventy times seven? I can't believe that I, of all people, am having to say this. RTFM.

[SusanDoris]

Forgiveness is a two way thing.  You can't forgive someone who does not repent for what they have done.

Does that mean, then, that you could not forgive someone who had wronged you if that person did not repent?

[Alan Burns]

Does that mean, then, that you could not forgive someone who had wronged you if that person did not repent?

Of course you can offer forgiveness, but it will not be complete until the other party accepts it.

It is the same with gifts - the giving of a gift is not completed until the gift is accepted.

Salvation is God's gift to us.

[Dicky Underpants]

...and what are you guys trying to tell me on this board?

More likely asking the question about why you introduce a topic called "Universalism", which several of us here understand as a theistic (and more specifically Christian) concept, and then go on to waffle on in words which seem to be vaguely related to your favourite topic of 'God-dodging'. That's assuming your first post meant anything at all.
As Rhiannon has said, Universalism is an interesting topic to discuss - would you like to contribute, rather than ranting on about Richard Dawkins?

[Dicky Underpants]

What?

People quote me........are you suggesting their stupid?

They might suggest that you're (sic) one of that disconconcertingly large number of people who don't know the difference between the possessive adjective 3rd person, and the contracted form of "they are" (or other contracted forms of the verb to be).

[wigginhall]

Of course you can offer forgiveness, but it will not be complete until the other party accepts it.

It is the same with gifts - the giving of a gift is not completed until the gift is accepted.

Salvation is God's gift to us.

Yeah, but it's a gift that we can't refuse!

[SusanDoris]

Of course you can offer forgiveness, but it will not be complete until the other party accepts it.

Okay I'll try asking the question again. If a person who had wronged you did not repent before his/her death, then you cannot forgive them, can you.

[Jack Knave]

But not to the donor. If I've learnt anything at all about these extraordinary acts of forgiveness briefly alluded to earlier, it's that those who give it - not the recipients - do so in order to live at peace with themselves and not be consumed ever after with anger, vengeance and bitterness.

Doesn't your book say somewhere about forgiveness to seventy times seven? I can't believe that I, of all people, am having to say this. RTFM.

Isn't the whole issue or mechanism of forgiveness about it being asked for by the offender in the first place which starts the process off. If this initiation isn't proffered then forgiveness is not on the table. What you are talking about is personal internal reconciliation within yourself, to yourself.....?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yeah, but it's a gift that we can't refuse!

but many seem not to have accepted it. How many because they don't feel they need it? How many are finding alternative arrangements?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

but many seem not to have accepted it. How many because they don't feel they need it? How many are finding alternative arrangements?

Or because they've sensibly reasoned their way to concluding that there's no "gift" there in the first place.

[Jack Knave]

but many seem not to have accepted it. How many because they don't feel they need it? How many are finding alternative arrangements?

Accept what? It's like fake news, it's just words that go nowhere.

[Alan Burns]

Okay I'll try asking the question again. If a person who had wronged you did not repent before his/her death, then you cannot forgive them, can you.

In that case I would ask God to offer forgiveness on my behalf because they will be on His side of the fence.

[torridon]

Of course you can offer forgiveness, but it will not be complete until the other party accepts it.

It is the same with gifts - the giving of a gift is not completed until the gift is accepted.

Salvation is God's gift to us.

If God has some good thing to give then he will give it to everyone without fear or favour.  That simply follows from God being good.  Anything less defines God as some sort of tyrant.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Accept what? It's like fake news, it's just words that go nowhere.

Not in my experience.

[Jack Knave]

Not in my experience.

And there lies your problem. It is a subjective matter of experience, which when portrayed as an objective issue hits a brick wall.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If God has some good thing to give then he will give it to everyone without fear or favour.  That simply follows from God being good.  Anything less defines God as some sort of tyrant.

Perhaps we need to open the gift rather than write ''Not at this address'' on the packet.

[BeRational]

Perhaps we need to open the gift rather than write ''Not at this address'' on the packet.

What gift?

If it is a gift it cannot be taken back

[torridon]

Perhaps we need to open the gift rather than write ''Not at this address'' on the packet.

God would know not to trust any delivery service, especially during christmas, winter strikes and all that. That would set up an arbitrary discrimination between those that get it and those that don't.  A God, being good and wise, would save everyone and everything regardless of postcode and shoe size.

[Rhiannon]

Perhaps we need to open the gift rather than write ''Not at this address'' on the packet.

Is there one of those gift receipts so we can exchange it if it turns out to be a bit of a dud?

[SqueakyVoice]

Perhaps we need to open the gift rather than write ''Not at this address'' on the packet.

God - Hello Earthling.
Bipedal carbon based life form - Who? Me?
God - You have a problem.
Bcblf - Do I? Are you sure you've got the righ...
God - Yes! Your problem is SIN.
Bcblf - Sin? What's that? I'm still not sure whether you need to be talking...
God - I can solved your problem.
Bcblf - Are you sure you've got the right address? I haven't really got any probl...
God - I can solve your problem with this gift.
Bcblf - But?  Problem? Gift? What?
God - Just sign here please.
Bcblf - Hang on, what's the ... what?
God - Look mate, I just need a signature then I'll be on my way.
Bcblf - Oh well if it'll get rid of you then .
God - Cheers mate laters.
Bcblf - What if I don't want it?
God - Sorry mate, no returns. Now you can look forward to endlessly worshipping me for eternity. Latersbyebyegottagothesegiftswon'tdeliverthemselvesdonchaknowwwwww.....

[Jack Knave]

God - Hello Earthling.
Bipedal carbon based life form - Who? Me?
God - You have a problem.
Bcblf - Do I? Are you sure you've got the righ...
God - Yes! Your problem is SIN.
Bcblf - Sin? What's that? I'm still not sure whether you need to be talking...
God - I can solved your problem.
Bcblf - Are you sure you've got the right address? I haven't really got any probl...
God - I can solve your problem with this gift.
Bcblf - But?  Problem? Gift? What?
God - Just sign here please.
Bcblf - Hang on, what's the ... what?
God - Look mate, I just need a signature then I'll be on my way.
Bcblf - Oh well if it'll get rid of you then .
God - Cheers mate laters.
Bcblf - What if I don't want it?
God - Sorry mate, no returns. Now you can look forward to endlessly worshipping me for eternity. Latersbyebyegottagothesegiftswon'tdeliverthemselvesdonchaknowwwwww.....

For some reason that reminded me of the part in the film The Meaning Of Life when they come round to that blokes place to cash-in on his liver donor card.

[Alan Burns]

I'm resolutely unconvinced. That's because you don't just lay down one bald assertion of personal belief as fact or one logically fallacious non-argument and leave it at that; you keep on doing it time after time after time after time, month in, year out, even when corrected.

The reason I persist is because whatever is offered as a "correction" is in essence just an alternative opinion.  Just to summarise, regarding free will I maintain that "I" am in control of me, not the uncontrolled deterministic forces of nature.  And regarding perception, there has been no real progress in defining how perception works since Leibniz first explored this conundrum in 1687 (see Leibniz Mill).