Universalism

[torridon]

But love is a two way thing
If God's love is rejected, the inevitable consequence is eternal separation from God.

Makes no sense.  Humans have limited understanding, God is omniscient, or so they say. So it is not a relationship of equals, rather a paternalistic one.  A good father will do what is best for his all children because he knows, whereas we humans will inevitably get things wrong. A good father would love all his children unconditionally without fear or favour.

[ippy]

Makes no sense.  Humans have limited understanding, God is omniscient, or so they say. So it is not a relationship of equals, rather a paternalistic one.  A good father will do what is best for his all children because he knows, whereas we humans will inevitably get things wrong. A good father would love all his children unconditionally without fear or favour.

You're expressing rational thoughts torri, I think you can fill in the rest.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

Are you talking about love - which is where you started in #240 - or separation? Because any reasonably normal human being, as I'm increasingly coming to think you are not, recognises the difference between these two entirely different things.

You have children, I gather. Let's say they reject you, spurn you, turn their backs on you - do you love them less because of this? I'm not referring to how sad it would make you as that's a different thing - would you love them less? Remember that you said that love is a two way thing, so your answer may well show you up to be inconsistent, even incoherent ... not for the first time I might add.

But please, feel free to ignore the question and gloss over it as though you'd never even seen it. That's what you normally do, after all.

I think God's love and human rejection of it is aptly illustrated in the story of the prodigal son.  Ultimately God wants us to turn back to Him and accept His love, but we all have the free will to turn away from Him.  As I said, love is a two way thing, and God will never force His love upon us.

[Shaker]

I think God's love and human rejection of it is aptly illustrated in the story of the prodigal son.  Ultimately God wants us to turn back to Him and accept His love, but we all have the free will to turn away from Him.  As I said, love is a two way thing, and God will never force His love upon us.

This is repetition, not explanation.

You keep asserting that love is or has to be a two-way thing to count as love. So here's a question for you, since you ignored the previous one as I predicted. God may never force love upon anyone, but nevertheless, if a human being rejects this love, does this make God's love any less - yes or no? Did the father of the prodigal son love his son any less - yes or no?

[ippy]

This is repetition, not explanation.

You keep asserting that love is or has to be a two-way thing to count as love. So here's a question for you, since you ignored the previous one as I predicted. God may never force love upon anyone, but nevertheless, if a human being rejects this love, does this make God's love any less - yes or no? Did the father of the prodigal son love his son any less - yes or no?

I was just thinking, that new musical, what did they call it? 'La La Land', can't think what brought it to mind?

ippy

[Stranger]

Ultimately God wants us to turn back to Him and accept His love, but we all have the free will to turn away from Him.

Even if free will, from the point of view of an omnipotent and omniscient creator, wasn't the logical absurdity that it is; how can I possibly turn back or turn away from a being that doesn't even reveal its existence to me?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Makes no sense.  Humans have limited understanding, God is omniscient, or so they say. So it is not a relationship of equals, rather a paternalistic one.  A good father will do what is best for his all children because he knows, whereas we humans will inevitably get things wrong. A good father would love all his children unconditionally without fear or favour.

I find no moral content here at all. Is God merely a quizmaster asking what facts one knows or one's skill set? I'm not sure that's it at all.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

I find no moral content here at all. Is God merely a quizmaster asking what facts one knows or one's skill set? I'm not sure that's it at all.

God, as expressed by you and other, believers already known what it would take to change my mind from believer to unbeliever.
 
So why are there unbelievers?

1) Lack of evidence.

2) An inability to assess the evidence properly.

3) There is no evidence.

4) God dodgers one and all......... these are people how think that there REALLY is a GOD but DENY him even though (secretly) he knows GOD LOVES them UNCONDITIONALLY.

5) other, available request.

You would have thought the multi-Omni God could have sorted this one...

[Alan Burns]

This is repetition, not explanation.

You keep asserting that love is or has to be a two-way thing to count as love. So here's a question for you, since you ignored the previous one as I predicted. God may never force love upon anyone, but nevertheless, if a human being rejects this love, does this make God's love any less - yes or no? Did the father of the prodigal son love his son any less - yes or no?

Of course a big No - God's love is constant and eternal.  But to fulfil the Love God offers, we have to freely accept it.  The prodigal son's rejection of his father's love did not in any way diminish that love, but the love was not brought to fruition until the son repented and turned back to the father of his own free will.

[Shaker]

Of course a big No - God's love is constant and eternal [...] The prodigal son's rejection of his father's love did not in any way diminish that love

Right. So you've just gone back on your earlier assertion (in #240) that love is a two way thing, by now saying that it isn't.

Is it, or is it not?

And in any case, isn't saying

Ultimately God wants us to turn back to Him and accept His love

saying that God is lacking in some way because he needs a certain thing? That there is something that God doesn't have?

[Owlswing]

But to fulfil the Love God offers, we have to freely accept it.

Boloney! Damn great bucketfuls mof boloney!

To get the love that God offers you have to get on your knees, give up any pretence of free will, do exactly and precisely what you are told or burn in Hell for eternity!

That is NOT love by any definition of love that I understand! Except perhaps Love as defined by the (thank Christ) mythical Mr Gray!

[torridon]

I find no moral content here at all. Is God merely a quizmaster asking what facts one knows or one's skill set? I'm not sure that's it at all.

But that is the implication of those rejecting universalism : rather that saving everyone, God discriminates, selecting only those with the correct beliefs.

[torridon]

Of course a big No - God's love is constant and eternal.  But to fulfil the Love God offers, we have to freely accept it.  The prodigal son's rejection of his father's love did not in any way diminish that love, but the love was not brought to fruition until the son repented and turned back to the father of his own free will.

The story of the prodigal son is only partially relevant to the wider issue.  For starters, the son would presumably have no doubts about his fathers paternality or his existence.  In reality, we have not established grounds beyond reasonable doubt that a paternallistic god even exists, so all that follows about a lost son returning does not even get out of the starting blocks as a viable metaphor.

[Walter]

Of course a big No - God's love is constant and eternal.  But to fulfil the Love God offers, we have to freely accept it.  The prodigal son's rejection of his father's love did not in any way diminish that love, but the love was not brought to fruition until the son repented and turned back to the father of his own free will.

did gods love exist before humans arrived and if so how do you know?
And if humans become extinct, how do you know if gods love is eternal.?

[ippy]

did gods love exist before humans arrived and if so how do you know?
And if humans become extinct, how do you know if gods love is eternal.?

Walter if you get anything like a sensible answer I will need to go and have a good lay down whilst trying to recover.

I'm certain this is a classic case of 100% indoctrination, otherwise we wouldn't be hearing such a load of old tripe from that direction, none of the magical, mystical and superstitional based parts of the tripe he bangs out has any kind of evidential base other than in his imagination.

Well we don't hear that much about Zeus or the old Norse gods etc nowdays, I suppose likewise it'll be a while before the majority of these cases die out but there'll always be the odd, emphasis on the odd, hardliner hanging on like grim death; sweeping around them might be the best move, but the only trouble with that is they're still doing their best to hand on their misguided indoctrinational tendencies to the next generation, so that makes it a duty to challenge them.

ippy

[Walter]

Walter if you get anything like a sensible answer I will need to go and have a good lay down whilst trying to recover.

I'm certain this is a classic case of 100% indoctrination, otherwise we wouldn't be hearing such a load of old tripe from that direction, none of the magical, mystical and superstitional based parts of the tripe he bangs out has any kind of evidential base other than in his imagination.

Well we don't hear that much about Zeus or the old Norse gods etc nowdays, I suppose likewise it'll be a while before the majority of these cases die out but there'll always be the odd, emphasis on the odd, hardliner hanging on like grim death; sweeping around them might be the best move, but the only trouble with that is they're still doing their best to hand on their misguided indoctrinational tendencies to the next generation, so that makes it a duty to challenge them.

ippy

Not only challenge but a good strong dose of ridicule should also be employed in the hope that it will shame them into keeping quiet . Plus they should not be allowed near children , even their own, until such time they can provide any empirical evidence to support any religious claims they make.

I thank you.

[Alan Burns]

did gods love exist before humans arrived and if so how do you know?

Because love does not come from a cloud of exploding gas

And if humans become extinct, how do you know if gods love is eternal.?

Because the human soul is eternal

[Stranger]

Because the human soul is eternal

He asserted - without the first hit if a suggestion of a scintilla of evidence or rational argument...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Because love does not come from a cloud of exploding gas

Because the human soul is eternal

Once again you commit the fallacy of reification - you assert your claims of fact with neither logic nor evidence to support them, then proceed to draw conclusions from them.

You clearly want your various claims to be taken seriously, so let me help you. When someone makes claims of fact, the basic idea is that they should then provide some reasoning or evidence to enable others to distinguish those claims from just guessing. What you do though is to make a series of remarkable claims of fact, but you provide nothing at all to suggest that you're right.

Why not start afresh, and finally attempt at least to construct a cogent argument that would validate your assertions?

[Alan Burns]

The story of the prodigal son is only partially relevant to the wider issue.  For starters, the son would presumably have no doubts about his fathers paternality or his existence.  In reality, we have not established grounds beyond reasonable doubt that a paternallistic god even exists, so all that follows about a lost son returning does not even get out of the starting blocks as a viable metaphor.

The story is given to illustrate the nature of God's love for us, and it aptly illustrates the error in your post about God's love giving salvation to all, even when it is rejected.  God gives us the ability to freely choose our destiny - He does not force this choice upon us.

[Walter]

The story is given to illustrate the nature of God's love for us, and it aptly illustrates the error in your post about God's love giving salvation to all, even when it is rejected.  God gives us the ability to freely choose our destiny - He does not force this choice upon us.

you are just making this up for comedic effect aren't you? I know your game.

[Stranger]

God gives us the ability to freely choose our destiny - He does not force this choice upon us.

You keep on asserting this despite its utter absurdity.

How can we exercise "free will" (neglecting for a moment the innate absurdity of the concept in this context) if we have no indication that the choice is even real. I see no god - I see no choice to make...

[Alan Burns]

I see no god - I see no choice to make...

Billions of human beings would disagree.

[Walter]

Billions of human beings would disagree.

and flies eat shit!

[Stranger]

Billions of human beings would disagree.

This would be a classic argumentum ad populum fallacy if it wasn't for the fact that billions of people don't agree - they disagree with each other about which god(s) is(are) real...

Whichever god(s) you believe in, most people think you are wrong.