Author Topic: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red  (Read 63829 times)

Spud

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While we can't recover the majority of mud brick structures, Spud, there ARE a few tantalising remains at Qantir, Sais,  Bubastis and Tanis.
All these sites have other evidence of occupancy - foundations, foundation deposits, stonework, midden heaps, pottery shards. ostraca, cemeteries, etc - the usual finds which indicate settlement.
Even villages which have left no trace as far as mud brick dwellings are concerned leave traces such as midden heaps, cemeteries, evidence of enclosures for livestock, etc.
The nuts and bolts of everyday life.

I've looked at the four sites you mentioned, and the finds you describe sound interesting. I'm just a bit confused as to how many other places in the region have yielded ancient remains - it's a huge area which could easily support a couple of million people. There seem to be hundreds, if not thousands more villages, so could there be a lot more discoveries yet to be made? If you are saying that archaeological 'digs' have been done in all of them and yielded just scanty remains, then that would obviously seem to be an indication that the numbers claimed in the Pentateuch are not accurate.

Anchorman

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I've looked at the four sites you mentioned, and the finds you describe sound interesting. I'm just a bit confused as to how many other places in the region have yielded ancient remains - it's a huge area which could easily support a couple of million people. There seem to be hundreds, if not thousands more villages, so could there be a lot more discoveries yet to be made? If you are saying that archaeological 'digs' have been done in all of them and yielded just scanty remains, then that would obviously seem to be an indication that the numbers claimed in the Pentateuch are not accurate.


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The central and Eastern Delta has yielded a very rich harvest of finds.
The Delta became strategically important from the Middle Kingdom onwards, and has been excavated by many groups in the last century and a half - and those excavations went into overdrive when Montet made the aforesaid discoveries at Tanis (which, incidentally, he thought was Piramesse because of the Rammeside statues)
With the positive identification of qantir and the digs at the various military forts on the Egypt/Sinai border established by New Kingdom kings, we have a pretty good idea of all major sites in the Eastern/Central Delta.
While of course there will be settlements as yet undiscovered, they cannot be major sites in the Pharonic times.
Again, any settlement yet to be uncovered would have to be relatively near Piramesse if it was to be a 'slave settlement' (assuming such a thing existed).
No such settlement has been found anywhere near the site - despite extensive surveys conducted by the University of Tel Aviv in the last decade for that purpose.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Khatru

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Anchorman

But you have to admit that such archaeology (stone prisms and the like), whilst they may corroborate certain historical OT details, don't go very far to substantiate the invention of angels (siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib) or pillars of fire in the desert.

I think it's pretty safe to say that archaeology is no friend to the Bible, particularly in regard to the Bible's claims of magical goings on.

"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

Spud

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Hi Jim, just to say I have found the survey of all currently known sites, and the plan is to look through some of them.

http://deltasurvey.ees.ac.uk/dsintro.html

Anchorman

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Hi Jim, just to say I have found the survey of all currently known sites, and the plan is to look through some of them.

http://deltasurvey.ees.ac.uk/dsintro.html

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The EES are a very reputable outfit, Spud - one of the oldest and most respected in the field - the founder, the great Amelia Edwards was the one inspired to hire Flinders Petrie,perhaps the greatest of all the early Egyptologists, (and a committed Christian, by the way)
I took part in a dig at Tanis sponsored by the EES in 1980 - and that was partly responsible for my taking a serious interest in the third Intermediate and Late Periods of Egypt.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

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I think it's pretty safe to say that archaeology is no friend to the Bible, particularly in regard to the Bible's claims of magical goings on.




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If you look at the earliest posts on the thread, Khatru, you'll find that archaeology confirms quite a bit of the Old Testament (at least from Kings onward). I, and many other Christians, accept the view that the Pentateuch cannot be seen as history due to editing in antiquity.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Spud

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Jim, I know what you mean. I was quite inspired when I came across the Aldreth Causeway just up the road from my grandparents' house. William the conqueror nearly didn't get to capture the then isle of Ely when lots of his men fell off into the marsh.

Owlswing

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 I, and many other Christians, accept the view that the Pentateuch cannot be seen as history due to editing in antiquity.



Unfortunately, Anchorman, there is only one of you and damn few of the "many other Christians" and far too many of the "the Bible is the true history and I will brook no argument against this statement" Christians on this forum!


And I, for one, not being any of those listed above, appreciate your honesty!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Spud

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Unfortunately, Anchorman, there is only one of you and damn few of the "many other Christians" and far too many of the "the Bible is the true history and I will brook no argument against this statement" Christians on this forum!


And I, for one, not being any of those listed above, appreciate your honesty!

Owl, many of the sites listed in the Delta are either overbuilt or have been destroyed by agriculture.



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The central and Eastern Delta has yielded a very rich harvest of finds.
The Delta became strategically important from the Middle Kingdom onwards, and has been excavated by many groups in the last century and a half - and those excavations went into overdrive when Montet made the aforesaid discoveries at Tanis (which, incidentally, he thought was Piramesse because of the Rammeside statues)
With the positive identification of qantir and the digs at the various military forts on the Egypt/Sinai border established by New Kingdom kings, we have a pretty good idea of all major sites in the Eastern/Central Delta.
While of course there will be settlements as yet undiscovered, they cannot be major sites in the Pharonic times.
Again, any settlement yet to be uncovered would have to be relatively near Piramesse if it was to be a 'slave settlement' (assuming such a thing existed).
No such settlement has been found anywhere near the site - despite extensive surveys conducted by the University of Tel Aviv in the last decade for that purpose.

Jim,

I've ​read about about Tanis and about Piramesse, which was the original capital before the branch of the Nile it was near silted up. It's interesting that the Bible doesn't mention Tanis but does mention Rameses, as though that original city was still in existence at the time of writing.

Do you know if the inhabitants of Piramesse have been identified? It's apparently still being mapped, and covers about 1500 hectares.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 11:38:50 AM by Spud »

Anchorman

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Owl, many of the sites listed in the Delta are either overbuilt or have been destroyed by agriculture. Jim, I've​read about about Tanis and about Piramesse, which was the original capital before the branch of the Nile it was near silted up. It's interesting that the Bible doesn't mention Tanis but does mention Rameses, as though that original city was still in existence at the time of writing. Do you know if the inhabitants of Piramesse have been identified? It's apparently still being mapped, and covers about 1500 hectares.
- Tanis has always been my destination of choice in Egypt, Spud. The reason you don't see inscriptions mentioning both cities is staggeringly simple - but almost beyond belief - but this is no April Fool. When Piramesse began to silt up because the Nile shifted its' course toward the end of the Ramesside period, the entire stonework - obelisks, Temples, statues, collossi by the dozen, were removed stone by stone and rebuilt at Djanet. This feat rivals the pyramids in its complexity, but is largely ignored. All that remains of Pirammesse are foundations and bits of flooring, etc. Many saw the 'divided' dyn XXI as weak - but the movement of an entire massive city belies that. Not only that, the stunning royal necropolis which Montet found has some of the most incredible gold and silverwork - surpassing in many ways, the tomb of Tutankhamun. So what happened to the inhabitants of Piramesse? By around 1000 there wasn't much of a city to inhabit, unless you were part of the removal project. Tanis became the northern Capital, with all the admin facilities relocated there, lock stock and barrel. Because Montet wrote in French and Egypt was administered by Britain at the time - and the small matter of the second world war got in the way - the finds at Tanis are far less publicised than they deserve to be. The golden masks - yes, plural - solid silver coffins, brilliantly executed intricate gold and silversmithing show an artistry which is superb. Google 'Psusennes I', 'Silver Pharoah', "Sheshonq II' (son of the Biblical Shishak), and Tanis treasures. You'll maybe get an idea of what I'm banging on about.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 09:47:19 AM by Anchorman »
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Owlswing

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Owl, many of the sites listed in the Delta are either overbuilt or have been destroyed by agriculture.



Spud

My post read:

Quote
Unfortunately, Anchorman, there is only one of you and damn few of the "many other Christians" and far too many of the "the Bible is the true history and I will brook no argument against this statement" Christians on this forum!


And I, for one, not being any of those listed above, appreciate your honesty!


Would you please explain how your comment is relevant to my post.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Spud

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- Tanis has always been my destination of choice in Egypt, Spud. The reason you don't see inscriptions mentioning both cities is staggeringly simple - but almost beyond belief - but this is no April Fool. When Piramesse began to silt up because the Nile shifted its' course toward the end of the Ramesside period, the entire stonework - obelisks, Temples, statues, collossi by the dozen, were removed stone by stone and rebuilt at Djanet. This feat rivals the pyramids in its complexity, but is largely ignored. All that remains of Pirammesse are foundations and bits of flooring, etc. Many saw the 'divided' dyn XXI as weak - but the movement of an entire massive city belies that. Not only that, the stunning royal necropolis which Montet found has some of the most incredible gold and silverwork - surpassing in many ways, the tomb of Tutankhamun. So what happened to the inhabitants of Piramesse? By around 1000 there wasn't much of a city to inhabit, unless you were part of the removal project. Tanis became the northern Capital, with all the admin facilities relocated there, lock stock and barrel. Because Montet wrote in French and Egypt was administered by Britain at the time - and the small matter of the second world war got in the way - the finds at Tanis are far less publicised than they deserve to be. The golden masks - yes, plural - solid silver coffins, brilliantly executed intricate gold and silversmithing show an artistry which is superb. Google 'Psusennes I', 'Silver Pharoah', "Sheshonq II' (son of the Biblical Shishak), and Tanis treasures. You'll maybe get an idea of what I'm banging on about.
Thanks for this, Jim. In the Septuagint, Genesis 46:28 is translated,

" all the souls of the house of Jacob who came with Joseph into Egypt, were seventy-five souls. 28 And he sent Judas before him to Joseph, to meet him to the city of Heroes, into the land of Ramesses. 29 And Joseph having made ready his chariots, went up to meet Israel his father, at the city of Heroes"


Keil & Delitzsch comment on this,  that "Raemses (cf. Genesis 47:11) was the ancient Heroopolis....." and, " if Heroopolis belonged to the γῆ Ῥαμεσσῆ, or the province of Raemses, which formed the centre of the land of Goshen that was assigned to the Israelites, this city must have stood in the immediate neighbourhood of Raemses, or have been identical with it. Now, since the researches of the scientific men attached to the great French expedition, it has been generally admitted that Heroopolis occupied the site of the modern Abu Keisheib in the Wady Tumilat, between Thoum equals Pithom and the Birket Temsah or Crocodile Lake; and according to the Itiner. p. 170, it was only 24 Roman miles to the east of Pithom, - a position that was admirably adapted not only for a magazine, but also for the gathering-place of Israel prior to their departure (Exodus 12:37)."

I looked up the Wadi Tumilat, which is apparently a canal. But I couldn't find "Keisheib". Any ideas on that?

Anchorman

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Some of the Hebrew words for Egyptian towns are so obscure that we can't find the Egyptian equivalent. Same with 'Heropolis' - probably a corruption of the Greek Hieropolis, of which there are at least a dozen candidates, and of cours. Hierokonpolis. Incidentally; why Greek? There were certainly Greek trading ports in the Delta for centuries before Alexander the Great - but the Egyptians themselves wouldn't have used Greek words.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Spud

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Spud,

Would you please explain how your comment is relevant to my post.
It's one reason why it's not dishonest to say that the Hebrews definitely were in Egypt in the numbers claimed by the Bible despite the lack of evidence. There may have been evidence which has since been destroyed.

An example: no evidence for the movement of some of the huge Egyptian armies through the desert towards Canaan except for what the inscriptions tell us. Yet we believe the inscriptions.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 07:23:53 PM by Spud »

Anchorman

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Not entirely true, Spud. The camps of the troops of Thutmose III, Ramesses II, Merenptah etc have been identified - on the basis of burned hearth remains, discarded pottery with the names of the kings inscribed on them, a few burials - Egyptian style - of troops who, presumably, died during the shorrt rout march through Sinai, stelae erected by the 'victorious' kings of Egypt in Palestine, Syria, and as far as the Tigris and Orontes rivers. So, quite a bit of evidence outside Egypt for these military expeditions - while none INSIDE Egypt for a 'slave' population in the Delta.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Spud

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Ok Jim, will take that as true. Any comment on the overbuilding/destruction by agriculture of many of the archaeological sites that have been listed in the Delta?

Anchorman

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The very fact that we can note the destruction of remains by agriculture shows that we acknowledge those remains, Spud. A building, unless pulverised by modern hi-teck equipment, will always leave traces odf its' location: the colour of the soil indicating where a fire was: remnants of pots, small bits of metal, bone, etc. Even though the mudbricks themselves have long since disintegrated, traces of the foundation, walls, etc will be apparent with the judicious use of a trowel and a good pair of eyes. Magnify the numbers to include not one building, but a village or town, and the number of remnants testify to the location and existance of a population in a specific area. Add the fact that different populations at different times used different styles and techniques in making pots, and, thanks to Flinders Petrie (again), we can date the time when the pot was made, and roughly show the ethnic origin of the potter.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Spud

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I know archaeology is a very accurate and complex science, Jim. I've watched a programme called Time Team once or twice, so I am aware that entire villages can be mapped out using aerial surveying and minimal digging of trenches. I was interested that the city of Piramesse is still being mapped, using special equipment, and this is likely to take 20 years. I guess we should take your word for it that the evidence is complete enough to rule out 2 million Hebrews in the Delta, though.

Anchorman

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At the time of the construction of Piramesse, the Delta supported about two million of a population in total. So, no, no chance of a Hebrew slave population of two million plus enough grazing animals to sustain them. It would take around a millenium to get the Delta productive enough to sustain such numbers.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

trippymonkey

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As far as I know,NONE of the Egyptians enemies have ever mentioned half of Egypt upping & leaving, no ?!?!?!!?

Spud

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Just found this:
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A section of Papyrus Brooklyn 35.1446 contains a list of 95 servants, many of whom are specified as "Asiatic" or coming from western Asia (i.e. Canaan). The servants with foreign names are given Egyptian names, just as Joseph was when he was a household servant under Potiphar (Genesis 41:45). The majority of the names are feminine because domestic servants were typically female, while the male servants often worked in construction or agricultural tasks. Approximately 30 of the servants have names identified as from the Semitic language family (Hebrew is a Semitic language), but even more relevant to the Exodus story is that several of these servants, up to ten, actually have specifically Hebrew names. The Hebrew names found on the list include: Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem (2 Kings 15:14); Ashera, a feminine form of Asher, the name of one of the sons of Jacob (Genesis 30:13); Shiphrah, the name of one of the Hebrew midwives prior to the Exodus (Exodus 1:15); ‘Aqoba, a name appearing to be a feminine form of Jacob or Yaqob, the name of the patriarch (Genesis 25:26); ‘Ayyabum, the name of the patriarch Job or Ayob (Job 1:1); Sekera, which is a feminine name either similar to Issakar, a name of one of the sons of Jacob, or the feminine form of it (Genesis 30:18); Dawidi-huat a compound name utilizing the name David and meaning “my beloved is he” (1 Samuel 16:13); Esebtw, a name derived from the Hebrew word eseb meaning “herb” (Deuteronomy 32:2); Hayah-wr another compound name composed of Hayah or Eve and meaning “bright life” (Genesis 3:20); and finally the name Hy’b’rw, which appears to be an Egyptian transcription of Hebrew (Genesis 39:14). Thus, this list is a clear attestation of Hebrew people living in Egypt prior to the Exodus, and it is an essential piece of evidence in the argument for an historical Exodus. Although it appears that the Israelites were centered around the northeast Nile Delta area—the regions of Goshen and Rameses and the cities of Rameses, Pithom, and On—this document is from the area of Thebes to the south and includes household servants like Joseph in his early years rather than building and agricultural slaves of the period of Moses. Thus, the list appears to be an attestation of Hebrews in Egypt in their earlier period of residence in the country, prior to their total enslavement, and perhaps shows that a group may have migrated south or was taken south for work. While remains of material culture such as pottery, architecture, or artifacts may be ethnically ambiguous, Hebrew names and possibly even the word or name Hebrew clearly indicates that there were Hebrews living in Egypt. Although rather obscure, the list includes the earliest attestation of Hebrew names that has ever been recovered in Egypt, and it demonstrates that Hebrews were in Egypt prior to the 1440s BC just as the story in the book of Exodus records.
http://www.apxaioc.com/article/hebrews-egypt-exodus-evidence-papyrus-brooklyn

Anchorman

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Not really evidence, more assumption. No-one disputes the Semitic origin of a lot of Egyptian names - the 14th and 15th dynasty 'Hyksos' kings were Semite in origin, and many of the inscriptions they left are in Semitic tongue(s). The eighteenth dynasty king Thutmose III had three Semitic wives (buried in the Valley of the Kings) one of whom, Merti, translates perfectly as Martha. No-one suggests she was connected to the Hebrew Exodus in any way. Even the Name YHWH is found during the time of Amenhotep III in several inscriptions; one at Luxor and two in Nubia. Again, no connection with an exodus in any Biblical sense.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Spud

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I don't think it is claiming more than that Hebrews were in Egypt before the supposed time of the Exodus, Jim.

Another interesting idea is this:

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It was in the fifth year of his reign that the Delta was attacked by a formidable combination of foes. The Libyans threatened it on the west: on the north, bands of sea-pirates from the coasts of Asia Minor and the islands of the Mediterranean attacked it by sea and land. A mutilated inscription of Meneptah tells us how the tents of the invaders had been pitched on the outskirts of the land of Goshen, within reach of the Bedâwin shepherds who fed their flocks there, and how the troops of the Pharaoh, pressed at once by the enemy and by the disaffected population of Goshen, had been cooped up within the walls of the great cities, afraid to venture forth. The fate of the invasion was sealed, however, by a decisive battle in which the Egyptians almost annihilated their foes. But the land of Goshen was left empty and desolate; the foreign tribes who had dwelt in it fled into the wilderness under the cover of the Libyan invasion. The pressure of the invasion had forced the Pharaoh to allow his serfs a free passage out of Egypt, quite as much as the "signs and wonders" which were wrought by the hand of Moses. Egypt was protected on its eastern side by a line of fortifications, and through these permission was given that the Israelites should pass. But the permission was hardly [pg 50] given before it was recalled. A small body of cavalry, not move than six hundred in number, was sent in pursuit of the fugitives, who were loaded with the plunder they had carried away from the Egyptians. They were a disorganised and unwarlike multitude, consisting partly of serfs, partly of women and children, partly of stragglers from the armies of the Libyan and Mediterranean invaders. Six hundred men were deemed sufficient either to destroy them or to reduce them once more to captivity....

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/12976/12976-h/12976-h.htm

No mention of the Libyan invasion in the book of Exodus, although it's interesting that no sooner had the Israelites left Egypt than they were attacked by the Amalekites. Could the latter have been among the groups that joined the Libyans? Again it's just conjecture though.

Anchorman

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An interesting idea, yes, but typical of a romantic interpretation of events. First 'Goshen' is a Hebrew word with no Egyptian equivalent, so we don't know where exactly the editors of the Pentateuch thought it was. Secondly, Mernpta did not anihilate his enemies. Oh, I know he says this on his Karnak inscription - trouble is, though, every Egyptian king said the same thing  - there's even a depiction of Tutankhamun smiting 'Asiatics' and slaughtering them - despite the fact that this dates from his year 2, when he was about ten years old. Merenptah's father, Ramesses II,claimed the Battle of Kadesh as a massive triumph for the Egyptians - when at best it was an ignominious draw. The evidence is that the Lybians settled in the Western Delta. They later assimilated Egyptian customs, and, indeed, rose to rule the country in the Third Intermediate and part of the Late periods. The Canaanites, far from being anihilated, continued their campaigns on both land and sea as the 'Palistinu' - sea peoples' who were successful in establishing Phonecia as a state, but repelled from Egypt by Ramesses III - and settled with his blessing on the coast of Canaan - to become the Philistines (and later Palestinians). Don't take the propaganda on the walls of Egyptian Temples as historical fact without examining the other available evidence. Merenptah may have seen himself as a warrior king - but at most he was trying to consolidate the ground his father claimed.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Spud

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When you say, the Lybians settled in the Delta, do you mean that they didn't literally invade?