Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red

[Anchorman]

When you say, the Lybians settled in the Delta, do you mean that they didn't literally invade?

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There were a few minor incursions in the Western Delta, which was relatively unpopulated at the time, from as early as the rule of Hoemheb. These weren't really something to write home about - at least Ramesses II, who had everything else he did written down in umpteen places - didn't rank the skirmishes he had with the 'Meshwesh' as serious enough to crush them.
Merenptah simply imposed order in the Western Delta, took a few sons of local chiefs as hosytage (and vrought them up at court, beginning the 'Egyptianisation' in the process, flattened a few hamlets, and put his own staff officer, Ptahsebenakht, in charge as governor of the 'nome' or district.

[Spud]

An interesting idea, yes, but typical of a romantic interpretation of events.

It does fit with Merneptah's predecessor Ramesses II building the city of Piramesse, which Exodus 1 says the Hebrews were involved with.

Do you know which inscription, if any, this comes from: "A mutilated inscription of Meneptah tells us how the tents of the invaders had been pitched on the outskirts of the land of Goshen, within reach of the Bedâwin shepherds who fed their flocks there, and how the troops of the Pharaoh, pressed at once by the enemy and by the disaffected population of Goshen, had been cooped up within the walls of the great cities, afraid to venture forth." ?

[Anchorman]

It does fit with Merneptah's predecessor Ramesses II building the city of Piramesse, which Exodus 1 says the Hebrews were involved with.

Do you know which inscription, if any, this comes from: "A mutilated inscription of Meneptah tells us how the tents of the invaders had been pitched on the outskirts of the land of Goshen, within reach of the Bedâwin shepherds who fed their flocks there, and how the troops of the Pharaoh, pressed at once by the enemy and by the disaffected population of Goshen, had been cooped up within the walls of the great cities, afraid to venture forth." ?

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Since 'Goshen' is not an Egyptian term, nor an are defined in Egyptian script, it must be an over interpreted  view of the campaigning of Merenptah found on the walls of his pylon or termenos wall at Karnak, and given a 'biblical' gloss.

[Spud]

Cheers Jim. It's been very educational discussing this with you 

[Anchorman]

Cheers Jim. It's been very educational discussing this with you 

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My geekieness was started by a primary school teacher, Spud.
Our class were asked to do projects - you know the thing - and, as I was a fan of spaceflight, I chose that. My teacher said that that was a hobby, not a challenge - so I'll give you something.
The rest was archaeology!


(That teacher's still a very good friend of mine - despite everything.....)

[Anchorman]

Dunno if you are logged into this site, Spud, but here's an interesting take on Egyptian fortifications in the Eastern Delta in the Ramesside era. I've been using it to dig out some stuff on the decline of the twentieth dynasty, but there is info on the strategic deployment of pharonic troops around the putative time of the Exodus....if such there was. http://www.academia.edu/9165672/_Forts_Pharaonic_Egypt_pp._2724-30_in_R._Bagnall_et._al._eds._Encyclopedia_of_Ancient_History_2013_overview_2_501_words_

[Spud]

- Spud: If there are no remains for a population of 600,00 - middens, cemetaries, breweries, townships, etc - then there was no such population. You might be able to lose a village of a few hundred inhabitants - or a town with a few thousands; but a population of over half a million would be impossible to lose - the traces would be far too obvious. There are no such traces in the Qantir region - absolutely none.

A few posts ago it was shown that Semitic possibly Hebrew names were found on a list of servants, from further south. Maybe the Israelites were spread throughout Egypt and assembled in Rameses for the Exodus?

[Anchorman]

A few posts ago it was shown that Semitic possibly Hebrew names were found on a list of servants, from further south. Maybe the Israelites were spread throughout Egypt and assembled in Rameses for the Exodus?

- Interesting hypothesis - but you'd have to find settlements with predominantly Semitic populations from c1500-1100 in Egypt, Spud.
We haven't found any so far.
Only by the twenty-sixth dynasty do we find the hard-pressed Sait dynasty kings recruiting Jewish mercenaries - who established a functioning Temple to YHWH at Abu (Elephantine).
They were put there to guard against a resurgant Kushite threat.
This not only shows the weakened state of Egypt, but a well established faith in YHWH, and a recreation of the Solomon Temple in Jerusalem, albeit on a very small scale, is significant proof of this.

[Spud]

Interesting, Jim.
The idea goes against the Exodus account, anyway, which says that the Israelites were still living in Goshen.

[Anchorman]

Interesting, Jim.
The idea goes against the Exodus account, anyway, which says that the Israelites were still living in Goshen.

That would be the Goshen for which there's no equivalent in Egyptian, and for which no-one has yet found so much as an ostracon?

[Spud]

That would be the Goshen for which there's no equivalent in Egyptian, and for which no-one has yet found so much as an ostracon?

Rameses is an Egyptian word, so 'the land of Rameses' is in a sense an equivalent of Goshen, I'd have thought. Whoever edited Genesis, in  47:11 seems to be using a current name for a known locatiion, as also in 35:19.

[Anchorman]

 Ramesses" - or, for that matter, "Ramses" aren't Egyptian words - well, not entirely. "Ramesses" is the Greek form of the personal name of Paramesu, whom we know as Ramesses II (Although most Egyptian statuary bears his 'official' name, Usermaatre Setepenre.) The Biblical 'Ramses' is simply a linguistic variant of "Per-ramesse" / "Piramesse" - vowels being a bit iffy in hieroglyphs. The words can be traced to a common linguistic root - unlike Goshen, which has no equivalent place name in the Eastern Delta. The only vague similarity would be with Buhen - but since that was a heavily fortified border fort town throughout the New Kingdom, it can be dismissed easily as a candidate.

[Spud]

Ramesses" - or, for that matter, "Ramses" aren't Egyptian words - well, not entirely. "Ramesses" is the Greek form of the personal name of Paramesu, whom we know as Ramesses II (Although most Egyptian statuary bears his 'official' name, Usermaatre Setepenre.) The Biblical 'Ramses' is simply a linguistic variant of "Per-ramesse" / "Piramesse" - vowels being a bit iffy in hieroglyphs. The words can be traced to a common linguistic root - unlike Goshen, which has no equivalent place name in the Eastern Delta. The only vague similarity would be with Buhen - but since that was a heavily fortified border fort town throughout the New Kingdom, it can be dismissed easily as a candidate.

Hm, so imagine the conversation between Jacob and the Pharaoh:

Jacob: we're shepherds, please can we live in Goshen?
Pharaoh: uh, live where?

The author of Genesis 47:11 may have been aware that the name Goshen needed explaining. For some reason he repeats the phrase, "in the best part of the land" which in verse 6 is followed by, "let them live in Goshen" but adds, "...the district of Rameses".

[Anchorman]

Hm, so imagine the conversation between Jacob and the Pharaoh:

Jacob: we're shepherds, please can we live in Goshen?
Pharaoh: uh, live where?

The author of Genesis 47:11 may have been aware that the name Goshen needed explaining. For some reason he repeats the phrase, "in the best part of the land" which in verse 6 is followed by, "let them live in Goshen" but adds, "...the district of Rameses".

Again, this argues for a judicious editing of what was the original, Spud.
Whatever the Egyptians were, they were humans.
If we assume that the builder of 'Ramses' was Ramesses II - and since he constructed Piramesse, he can be the only candidate, if there is one - then there's a problem.
Piramesse was a heavily militerised city fortress - that was why Ramesses put it where he did; to defend against incursions from the Eastern desert, Sinai and beyond.
Would he risk surrounding his crack cavalry and infantry with tens - hundreds of thousands of the very foriegners he was trying to prevent COMING to the Delta in the first place?

[Anchorman]

Again, this argues for a judicious editing of what was the original, Spud.
Whatever the Egyptians were, they were humans.
If we assume that the builder of 'Ramses' was Ramesses II - and since he constructed Piramesse, he can be the only candidate, if there is one - then there's a problem.
Piramesse was a heavily militerised city fortress - that was why Ramesses put it where he did; to defend against incursions from the Eastern desert, Sinai and beyond.
Would he risk surrounding his crack cavalry and infantry with tens - hundreds of thousands of the very foriegners he was trying to prevent COMING to the Delta in the first place?

Bumped

[Spud]

Bumped

Jim,
The settling of the Hebrews in Goshen happened centuries before that, though.

[Anchorman]

Jim,
The settling of the Hebrews in Goshen happened centuries before that, though.

Aaaaaargh!
That would be the Goshen we cannot find on a map and for which there's no evidence of anything like a large settlement, then?

[Spud]

So I went onto YouTube to look for a talk on the Pharaoh of the Exodus, and ended up watching a video on how to play Steve Vai's diminished seventh guitar lick from the film Crossroads*. Does it matter that there is no evidence for a place called Goshen?
* Which I will not be attempting...

[Anchorman]

What matters is that there is no evidence for a Semitic slave population in the Delta; no evidence for a 'Pharaoh of the Exodus; (unless you count the whacky sites which go on about Akhenaten), no evidence for a lost Egyptian army (had such an army been 'lost', you can beet your local pyramid salesman that every local tribe, territory, statelet and chieftan from Syria to the fourth Nile cataract would have thrown off Egyptian influence at once, sure in the knowledge that the Egyptians would have no army to bring them back to order)

[jeremyp]

So I went onto YouTube to look for a talk on the Pharaoh of the Exodus, and ended up watching a video on how to play Steve Vai's diminished seventh guitar lick from the film Crossroads*.

As I recall, he still wasn't good enough to win the duel.

Does it matter that there is no evidence for a place called Goshen?

Yes if you are trying to establish the historical accuracy or otherwise of the Pentateuch.

[Spud]

As I recall, he still wasn't good enough to win the duel.

Something about Eugene's classical guitar training helping him beat Butler (acted by Steve Vai)? Haven't watched the film but its now on my list. Apparently Eugene mimed his solo which was performed by Steve Vai anyway!

[Spud]

What matters is that there is no evidence for a Semitic slave population in the Delta; no evidence for a 'Pharaoh of the Exodus; (unless you count the whacky sites which go on about Akhenaten), no evidence for a lost Egyptian army (had such an army been 'lost', you can beet your local pyramid salesman that every local tribe, territory, statelet and chieftan from Syria to the fourth Nile cataract would have thrown off Egyptian influence at once, sure in the knowledge that the Egyptians would have no army to bring them back to order)

'Goshen' could be a later Hebrew name for the province of Rameses, which is mentioned in Genesis 47:11 as the specific location? The only issue is that you can't find any archaeological evidence for Semite slaves in the area.

Akhenaten is too late for the Exodus. Thutmoses III seems most likely. According to Wiki his firstborn son died around 1455-1444 the time of the tenth plague.

[Anchorman]

What 'province of Rameses'? Egypt was historically divided into 'nomes' (No, there wasn't an elf service'). Originally there were fourteen, but the number varied through three thousand years. The area where the city of Piramesse was located was part of the 'nome' of Djenet - Tanis - and the Bible already has a name for that area - "Zoan".

[Spud]

What 'province of Rameses'? Egypt was historically divided into 'nomes' (No, there wasn't an elf service'). Originally there were fourteen, but the number varied through three thousand years. The area where the city of Piramesse was located was part of the 'nome' of Djenet - Tanis - and the Bible already has a name for that area - "Zoan".

Sorry, my mistake. Joseph settled his father and brothers in 'the land of Rameses'. The word 'land' here (erets) implies a region or country. It is used to describe Canaan, for example. Also, 'Rameses' in this verse appears to be a different word from the word that describes one of the cities built by the people of Israel ('Raamses'),  although Strong's concordance lists both words under the same entry, 7486. One is a land, the other is a city.

Yes, Zoan is translated 'Tanis' by the Septuagint.

[SteveH]

The stories in the Bible from the Two Kingdom period (after the reign of Solomon) have some external corroboration. For example, there is some Assyrian documentation relating to how they destroyed the Northern Kingdom. There are some Babylonian documents relating to the downfall of Judah.

Furthermore, there is archaeological evidence that the Noerthern Kingdom existed as a political entity at the time the Bible says it did. Similarly for Judah in the period after the Northern Kingdom was destroyed.

That's just history, though, with no miraculous element. Much of what's recorded in the later OT, from about David onwards, is probably true, and you don't have to be a conservative Christian or Jew to believe so.