Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red

[Anchorman]

'Goshen' could be a later Hebrew name for the province of Rameses, which is mentioned in Genesis 47:11 as the specific location? The only issue is that you can't find any archaeological evidence for Semite slaves in the area.

Akhenaten is too late for the Exodus. Thutmoses III seems most likely. According to Wiki his firstborn son died around 1455-1444 the time of the tenth plague.

   

In which case, Moses was either
A) referring to the Egypt of his day - thus putting the Exodus at the time of Ramesses II 0 which, given the Merenptah stela, doesn't make sense:
B( ignorant of the history of the country in which he was raised - there was NO  'Ramesses' 400 years earlier when Joseph entered Egypt.
Ramesses is a name which originated in the Delta and indicates a non Egyptian (Lybian) element in the ancestry, which would not be surprising:

[Owlswing]

Why has this been moved?

The whole argument is about references in the Christian Bible and was started by Sassy in an attempt to claim PROOF of the Exodus led by the Christian Moses!

[Nearly Sane]

Why has this been moved?

The whole argument is about references in the Christian Bible and was started by Sassy in an attempt to claim PROOF of the Exodus led by the Christian Moses!

Because none of the discussion has been about Christianity and Moses was Jewish

[Spud]

In which case, Moses was either
A) referring to the Egypt of his day - thus putting the Exodus at the time of Ramesses II 0 which, given the Merenptah stela, doesn't make sense:
B( ignorant of the history of the country in which he was raised - there was NO  'Ramesses' 400 years earlier when Joseph entered Egypt.
Ramesses is a name which originated in the Delta and indicates a non Egyptian (Lybian) element in the ancestry, which would not be surprising:

What do you think about the difference in spelling between the name of the city they built (Raamses) and the name of the land Joseph settled his family in (Rameses)?

These seem to be two different place names. I'm not sure how the Hebrew works, but your point about a Lybian origin is interesting.

[Anchorman]

What do you think about the difference in spelling between the name of the city they built (Raamses) and the name of the land Joseph settled his family in (Rameses)?

These seem to be two different place names. I'm not sure how the Hebrew works, but your point about a Lybian origin is interesting.

Not a lot - since both are translated versions of a mistranslation - or misunderstanding - by those who either wrote or edited the Pentateuch. Had Moses written it at the time, he would have used neither word.
He would have used "Per-Ramesse" as the name of the city, and "Usermaatre-setepenre Mery-Amun as the throne name of the king - the name by which Paramessu was known after his accession.
"Ramesses" is the Hellenised form of "Paramessu" [- the king's birth name which was only used in private correspondance or as an adjunct to his prenomen.

[Spud]

What matters is that there is no evidence for a Semitic slave population in the Delta

Barnes says that the Israelites were prevented from leaving Egypt, rather than enslaved:

Exodus 1:10:
"Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land."

Barnes: "The Pharaohs apprehended the loss of revenue and power, which would result from the withdrawal of a peaceful and industrious race."

Exodus 1:11:
"Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens."

Barnes: "Taskmasters - The Egyptian "Chiefs of tributes." They were men of rank, superintendents of the public works, such as are often represented on Egyptian monuments, and carefully distinguished from the subordinate overseers. The Israelites were employed in forced labor, probably in detachments, but they were not reduced to slavery, properly speaking, nor treated as captives of war. Amosis had special need of such laborers, as proved by the inscriptions."

[Anchorman]

 "revenue  and power"? Barnes, therefore, had no idea how the Egyptian economy in the New Kingdom worked, then. "revenue" meant agriculture - dependent on the annual inundation. Everyone who was not of the 'middle class' or higher, worked the land - everyone : soldier, sailor, builder - the lot - as soon as the Nile receded. The idea was to get the seed in ASAP. That took around six weeks, then people went back to their trade (unless permanently employed by royal or priestly warrant on tomb or temple construction. Even houses were abandoned half way through to get the planting done. The idea of keeping a reserve force to do this kind of thing is ludicrous - uneconomic for starters. And since there is no evidence of anything unusual in the Egyptian workforce which constructed Piramesse, where were the Hebrews? Where were their settlements? Their burials or rubbish dumps? So far, Spud, you have not given even the slightest evidence which would substantiate your ideas.

[Owlswing]

 "revenue  and power"? Barnes, therefore, had no idea how the Egyptian economy in the New Kingdom worked, then. "revenue" meant agriculture - dependent on the annual inundation. Everyone who was not of the 'middle class' or higher, worked the land - everyone : soldier, sailor, builder - the lot - as soon as the Nile receded. The idea was to get the seed in ASAP. That took around six weeks, then people went back to their trade (unless permanently employed by royal or priestly warrant on tomb or temple construction. Even houses were abandoned half way through to get the planting done. The idea of keeping a reserve force to do this kind of thing is ludicrous - uneconomic for starters. And since there is no evidence of anything unusual in the Egyptian workforce which constructed Piramesse, where were the Hebrews? Where were their settlements? Their burials or rubbish dumps? So far, Spud, you have not given even the slightest evidence which would substantiate your ideas.

Could this be because there is not even the slightest evidence which would substantiate your (Spud's) ideas?

[Anchorman]

Recycling par excellance. Here's a fragment - from Israel - with the cartouche of  Hequaiunu Usermaatre Mery-Amun Ramesses (III) 1182-1151. It was built into a Roman building - but must have been left over from his expulsion of the 'Palestinu' ("Sea Peoples") and his pursuing them into Canaan - inadvertantly setting up the 'Philistines' on the Canaan coast in the process. This cannot be earlier than his year 7 (c1178 BC) https://www.flickr.com/photos/archer10/33893326303

[jeremyp]

Why has this been moved?

The whole argument is about references in the Christian Bible and was started by Sassy in an attempt to claim PROOF of the Exodus led by the Christian Moses!

In her OP Sassy made no claim that Moses was a Christian.

[Owlswing]

In her OP Sassy made no claim that Moses was a Christian.

This is Sasssy we are talking about and in her world if it is in the Bible, as Exodus is (including Exodus 22:18), it is Christian history!

[Spud]

Not a lot - since both are translated versions of a mistranslation - or misunderstanding - by those who either wrote or edited the Pentateuch. Had Moses written it at the time, he would have used neither word.
He would have used "Per-Ramesse" as the name of the city, and "Usermaatre-setepenre Mery-Amun as the throne name of the king - the name by which Paramessu was known after his accession.
"Ramesses" is the Hellenised form of "Paramessu" [- the king's birth name which was only used in private correspondance or as an adjunct to his prenomen.

I'm confused because this would imply that the city built by the Hebrews along with Pithom was Piramesse. Yet Psalm 78:12 talks about God's miracles in Zoan, which according to numbers 13:22 was built around the same time as Hebron and thus seems to imply the Hyksos capital of Avaris.

[Spud]

What was happening at the site on which Piramesse was built before it became Piramesse?

[Anchorman]

I'm confused because this would imply that the city built by the Hebrews along with Pithom was Piramesse. Yet Psalm 78:12 talks about God's miracles in Zoan, which according to numbers 13:22 was built around the same time as Hebron and thus seems to imply the Hyksos capital of Avaris.

     Sorry - blasted Greeks get everywhere.
"Avaris" is the Greek name for the city the Egyptians called "Hutwaret".
The place has been excavated umpteen times - and there's no suggestion the place was ever called 'Ramses' or anything like it.
After the Hyksos were expelled, the place was pretty much ruined - until Thutmose III built a fort there a century later.
Then there's not a lot of activity until Ramesses  III rebuilt the fort in preparation for his campaign against the 'Sea Peoples!" - and after that, it fell into disuse, replaced by Djanet (Tanis) as Delta capital.

 

[Anchorman]

What was happening at the site on which Piramesse was built before it became Piramesse?

Nothing!
Ramesses II built the city because there was a perceived threat from the Hittites - and it was built to house the northern charit corps, as well as being an administrative capital.
Kings tended to do that - build new cities where none existed - Ij-Tawy, Akhetaten, Piramesse, Djanet, Bubastis - all examples of the concept.

[Spud]

Jim,
Just checking in with a clue I came across today. When Caleb and his friends explored the promised land, they said in their report that there were Hittites living in the hill country in Canaan. Could this indicate that it was before the time when Egypt was in control of Canaan? The passage is Numbers 13.

I also realised that Avaris was just a mile down the road from Piramesse - a slightly important detail!

[Anchorman]

 I doubt any serious Hittite military presence in Canaan, Spud. Akheperkare Thutmose (I) conducted several expansionist campaigns in the area around 1540-1525 BC, and established Egyptian rule over most of Palestine - in an effort to eradicate any future Hyksos invasion of the Delta. Of course, there might have been Hittite trading posts there, just as the Egyptians had trading posts in Hittusa. Besides, it would be several decades before the expansion of the Hittites made them a power in the area, and by tat time, Egypt had annexed most of Syria and penetrated what is now southern Iraq (inadvertently forcing the statelets there to coalesce into what would become Assyria) By the time Egyptian power in Palestine began to wane, around 1130, the Hittite empire had long ceased to exist.

[Spud]

I doubt any serious Hittite military presence in Canaan, Spud. Akheperkare Thutmose (I) conducted several expansionist campaigns in the area around 1540-1525 BC, and established Egyptian rule over most of Palestine - in an effort to eradicate any future Hyksos invasion of the Delta. Of course, there might have been Hittite trading posts there, just as the Egyptians had trading posts in Hittusa. Besides, it would be several decades before the expansion of the Hittites made them a power in the area, and by tat time, Egypt had annexed most of Syria and penetrated what is now southern Iraq (inadvertently forcing the statelets there to coalesce into what would become Assyria) By the time Egyptian power in Palestine began to wane, around 1130, the Hittite empire had long ceased to exist.

I agree with that. They must have just been living among the other groups. There were three phases between the Exodus and King David: the 40 years of wondering in the desert, followed by the invasion of Canaan and taking of cities occupied by various groups, then the wars against the Philistines. It is interesting that as you say there's no mention in the Pentateuch, Joshua or Judges, of the battles going on between the Egyptians, Hittites and Mitanni. But the Assyrian take-over of much of the region is well documented later in the Bible.

[Anchorman]

Which only adds to the theory that the Pentateuch was edited later in history. Incidentally, the fact that 'Philistines' (Egyptian 'Palestinu' - 'Sea Peoples') are mentioned puts the storiies of the fight against them toward the end of Ramesses III's reign, or that of his ineffective successor, Ramesses IV; since Ramesses III expelled the 'Sea Peoples' from the coast of Egypt, where they had tried to invade - just as they had invaded many Eastern Mediterranean territories, destabilising the area for decades to come. The invaders settled along the coast of what is now Israel. creating yet another mini state - Philistia.

[Spud]

The invaders settled along the coast of what is now Israel. creating yet another mini state - Philistia.

Do we know when this was in relation to their invasion of Egypt? Genesis says that the Philistines lived in Gerar at the time of Abraham.

[Anchorman]

I'd say 1176 or 1175 BC would be the best candidates for the culmination of the "Sea Peoples" crisis.
The remnant were driven off to settle on the Canaanite coast (many of this disparate group being of Canaanite descent anyway) and the name the Egyptians gave them "Plstn" which we tansliterate as "Palestinu" was further refined by the writers/editors of the Pentatwuch to "Philistines".
I don't normally use Wiki, but this link gives a reasonable view of the timelines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#Reign_of_Ramesses_III

[Spud]

Thanks for the link, a bit of reading for me to do. It's interesting that the Philistines are mentioned just after the exodus, when the Israelites went a different route so as to avoid their territory. They must have been living in south west Canaan before Rameses III ?

[Anchorman]

So you are presuming that some sort of exodus took place round about the end of Ramesses II's time or shortly thereafter - based on what evidence, please?
I  could site evidence that the DNA of populations in what became Israel dating from the 7th century BC differ in no significant way from the population in the same area eight centuries earlier.

[trippymonkey]

Because none of the discussion has been about Christianity and Moses was Jewish

Ironically so was Jesus ?!!?!?

[Spud]

So you are presuming that some sort of exodus took place round about the end of Ramesses II's time or shortly thereafter - based on what evidence, please?
I  could site evidence that the DNA of populations in what became Israel dating from the 7th century BC differ in no significant way from the population in the same area eight centuries earlier.

I think Ramesses II is too late, I was presuming on around 1446 BC. So do you think the Philistines didn't live along the coast of Canaan at that time (1446 BC)?