Snake oil still on sail

[Shaker]

No other patient taking treatment from the above person has been interviewed. So...clearly there is bias at work here and there is no effort to take an unbiased view of his work and treatment.

The death of a young woman given injections of baking soda to treat cancer tends to do that.

[Outrider]

I was supporting alternate treatments and diet changes. Yes...its possible that that particular person is a cheat. But alternate treatments prescribing changes in diet are not woo (whatever that is.....!). This is a clear case of....'we don't understand it so it must be woo'. 

Minchin, T. 'Storm' (2008) "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work... medicine."

Similar things were said about Yoga not very long ago....and are still said about Ayurveda, Acupuncture and so on.

What things were said? It really rather depends on which claims are being espoused. Yoga, for instance, is a good system of exercise and pseudo-meditative activity, and as such is a good preventive measure against a number of ailments - but only to the same degree a wide number of other gentle exercise programmes.

Most such dietary and alternate treatments are real treatments that could improve the immune system and cure illnesses.

Some. In most instances, the general advice to moderate what you eat, reduce meat consumption (especially red meat) and increase the variety[/] and quantity of vegetables is dietary advice that will improve the immune system and prevent illness; there aren't many illnesses that can be 'cured' by dietary intervention.

And just because they fail in one case, they cannot be dismissed as nonsense without a thorough investigation of all such cases.

What 'thorough investigation' is required to know that the theory 'increasing blood alkalinity will stop blood cells turning into germs' is nonsense?

Comparing them all to 'sale of snake oil' is absolute rubbish and is typical of the ivory tower that many 'mainstream' people are locking themselves in!!

Indeed - snake oil is rich in omega-3 fatty acids, and as a dietary supplement can help to alleviate some of the symptoms of certain types of arthritic complaints. Snake oil has some benefits, but has a history of being over-hyped, whereas injecting bicarbonate of soda has no demonstrable benefits.

O.

[Sriram]

Minchin, T. 'Storm' (2008) "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work... medicine."

What things were said? It really rather depends on which claims are being espoused. Yoga, for instance, is a good system of exercise and pseudo-meditative activity, and as such is a good preventive measure against a number of ailments - but only to the same degree a wide number of other gentle exercise programmes.

Some. In most instances, the general advice to moderate what you eat, reduce meat consumption (especially red meat) and increase the variety[/] and quantity of vegetables is dietary advice that will improve the immune system and prevent illness; there aren't many illnesses that can be 'cured' by dietary intervention.

What 'thorough investigation' is required to know that the theory 'increasing blood alkalinity will stop blood cells turning into germs' is nonsense?

Indeed - snake oil is rich in omega-3 fatty acids, and as a dietary supplement can help to alleviate some of the symptoms of certain types of arthritic complaints. Snake oil has some benefits, but has a history of being over-hyped, whereas injecting bicarbonate of soda has no demonstrable benefits.

O.

Outrider,

1. Investigations and clinical research are normally carried out in developed, rich countries like America and Europe... but only on things that are within their culture and their lifestyle. No one carries out research on diets or practices or  lifestyles that are present in Asia, middle east or other places.  These are usually disregarded...unless they start impacting western lifestyles significantly (like Yoga).

Some papers have been published now in the west on the benefits of fasting...though it is a common practice in India for centuries but in the west was laughed at till recently as a poverty driven practice. 

2. In countries like  India there is very little interest and scarce resources to carry out such formal research on all the hundreds of traditional diets, customs and medical practices. Where are the sponsors, professionals and other resources? Many day to day practices, diets, food items are continued to be used on the basis of either traditional authority or anecdotal evidence and no one looks around for formal clinical research reports.     

3. In all countries, even in the UK I am sure, many traditional practices, customs and methods are still prevalent among the people, though no formal research has been conducted on these or their efficacy established beyond doubt. It is impossible to establish such matters beyond doubt in all cases.  Who will sponsor the research?

4. Even in areas where formal research has been conducted and results published, one cannot be too sure of the correctness of the results. We have seen how oils and fats were rejected by doctors for decades (much against common wisdom) but are suddenly today being touted as healthy.  Even the  much talked about good cholesterol vs bad cholesterol  issue, which formed the basis of most medical diagnosis....is now under review with many experts saying that cholesterol is not responsible for heart problems. 

So...what really is all this research worth?! 

[Sebastian Toe]

Outrider,

1. Investigations and clinical research are normally carried out in developed, rich countries like America and Europe... but only on things that are within their culture and their lifestyle. No one carries out research on diets or practices or  lifestyles that are present in Asia, middle east or other places.  These are usually disregarded...unless they start impacting western lifestyles significantly (like Yoga).

Some papers have been published now in the west on the benefits of fasting...though it is a common practice in India for centuries but in the west was laughed at till recently as a poverty driven practice. 

2. In countries like  India there is very little interest and scarce resources to carry out such formal research on all the hundreds of traditional diets, customs and medical practices. Where are the sponsors, professionals and other resources? Many day to day practices, diets, food items are continued to be used on the basis of either traditional authority or anecdotal evidence and no one looks around for formal clinical research reports.     

3. In all countries, even in the UK I am sure, many traditional practices, customs and methods are still prevalent among the people, though no formal research has been conducted on these or their efficacy established beyond doubt. It is impossible to establish such matters beyond doubt in all cases.  Who will sponsor the research?

4. Even in areas where formal research has been conducted and results published, one cannot be too sure of the correctness of the results. We have seen how oils and fats were rejected by doctors for decades (much against common wisdom) but are suddenly today being touted as healthy.  Even the  much talked about good cholesterol vs bad cholesterol  issue, which formed the basis of most medical diagnosis....is now under review with many experts saying that cholesterol is not responsible for heart problems. 

So...what really is all this research worth?!

So you would like that there be research done on points 1, 2 and 3. Then when the results are in, dismiss them because the research won't be worth a thing?

[Outrider]

1. Investigations and clinical research are normally carried out in developed, rich countries like America and Europe... but only on things that are within their culture and their lifestyle. No one carries out research on diets or practices or  lifestyles that are present in Asia, middle east or other places.  These are usually disregarded...unless they start impacting western lifestyles significantly (like Yoga).

Right - I fail to see how that justifies your suggestion that we haven't given the obviously fraudulent nonsense being pandered in the original argument a fair go. Yes, there is a strong streak of western mono-culturalism in western culture - that doesn't mean that bicarbonate of soda suddenly cures cancer in other places, or that oriental blood cells turn in to germs.

2. In countries like  India there is very little interest and scarce resources to carry out such formal research on all the hundreds of traditional diets, customs and medical practices. Where are the sponsors, professionals and other resources? Many day to day practices, diets, food items are continued to be used on the basis of either traditional authority or anecdotal evidence and no one looks around for formal clinical research reports.

And... Firstly, we weren't looking at someone operating in India, but rather the US, where there is an agency that is supposed to enforce such things. Secondly, the lack of rigorous standards and enforcement in a developing nation doesn't mean that obviously fraudulent practices should get a free ride, even there.
     

3. In all countries, even in the UK I am sure, many traditional practices, customs and methods are still prevalent among the people, though no formal research has been conducted on these or their efficacy established beyond doubt. It is impossible to establish such matters beyond doubt in all cases.  Who will sponsor the research?

On the contrary, any number of studies are conducted to see what the veracity of various 'old wives tales' and remedies might be. None of which, by the way, has the slightest impact on this baseless stupidity about 'alkalinity' in the human body.

4. Even in areas where formal research has been conducted and results published, one cannot be too sure of the correctness of the results. We have seen how oils and fats were rejected by doctors for decades (much against common wisdom) but are suddenly today being touted as healthy.  Even the  much talked about good cholesterol vs bad cholesterol  issue, which formed the basis of most medical diagnosis....is now under review with many experts saying that cholesterol is not responsible for heart problems.

Yep. Science has been done badly, on occasion. At least it's been done, at least there was some sort of justification for the decisions, though.

So...what really is all this research worth?!

I'd say that the eradication of a number of previously common diseases, a massive increase in life-expectancy around the world (including the developing nations) and pharmaceutical and surgical techniques to mitigate or eradicate conditions that previously would have resulted in a torturous, hard, nasty, short life speak for themselves. If you're discarding the results of science and medicine out of hand, who's guilty of cultural imperialism now?

O.

[Sriram]

Right - I fail to see how that justifies your suggestion that we haven't given the obviously fraudulent nonsense being pandered in the original argument a fair go. Yes, there is a strong streak of western mono-culturalism in western culture - that doesn't mean that bicarbonate of soda suddenly cures cancer in other places, or that oriental blood cells turn in to germs.

And... Firstly, we weren't looking at someone operating in India, but rather the US, where there is an agency that is supposed to enforce such things. Secondly, the lack of rigorous standards and enforcement in a developing nation doesn't mean that obviously fraudulent practices should get a free ride, even there.
     
On the contrary, any number of studies are conducted to see what the veracity of various 'old wives tales' and remedies might be. None of which, by the way, has the slightest impact on this baseless stupidity about 'alkalinity' in the human body.

Yep. Science has been done badly, on occasion. At least it's been done, at least there was some sort of justification for the decisions, though.

I'd say that the eradication of a number of previously common diseases, a massive increase in life-expectancy around the world (including the developing nations) and pharmaceutical and surgical techniques to mitigate or eradicate conditions that previously would have resulted in a torturous, hard, nasty, short life speak for themselves. If you're discarding the results of science and medicine out of hand, who's guilty of cultural imperialism now?

O.

No...I am not advocating any specific method or practice and nor am I  advocating that science and clinical research should be discarded. Not at all!

I am only saying that every idea, system and practice across the globe cannot be tested clinically. It is a practical impossibility.  And even if something is tested clinically...there is no guarantee that the results are correct. Further research could easily reverse the first result.

So...many traditional practices could, should and inevitably will exist alongside clinically tested methods. That is my point. Merely because something does not have the tag of clinical testing....does not mean it is fraudulent or incorrect or cannot work.

[Aruntraveller]

Outrider,

1. Investigations and clinical research are normally carried out in developed, rich countries like America and Europe... but only on things that are within their culture and their lifestyle. No one carries out research on diets or practices or  lifestyles that are present in Asia, middle east or other places.  These are usually disregarded...unless they start impacting western lifestyles significantly (like Yoga).

Some papers have been published now in the west on the benefits of fasting...though it is a common practice in India for centuries but in the west was laughed at till recently as a poverty driven practice. 

2. In countries like  India there is very little interest and scarce resources to carry out such formal research on all the hundreds of traditional diets, customs and medical practices. Where are the sponsors, professionals and other resources? Many day to day practices, diets, food items are continued to be used on the basis of either traditional authority or anecdotal evidence and no one looks around for formal clinical research reports.     

3. In all countries, even in the UK I am sure, many traditional practices, customs and methods are still prevalent among the people, though no formal research has been conducted on these or their efficacy established beyond doubt. It is impossible to establish such matters beyond doubt in all cases.  Who will sponsor the research?

4. Even in areas where formal research has been conducted and results published, one cannot be too sure of the correctness of the results. We have seen how oils and fats were rejected by doctors for decades (much against common wisdom) but are suddenly today being touted as healthy.  Even the  much talked about good cholesterol vs bad cholesterol  issue, which formed the basis of most medical diagnosis....is now under review with many experts saying that cholesterol is not responsible for heart problems. 

So...what really is all this research worth?!

I can see why you are such an admirer of Donald Trump's way of working. No need for research or even real facts. Just make them up.

Don't have that vaccine it will give you autism (even though there is no evidence for it) - on the other hand plenty of evidence for the effects of  MMR infections. But we now have alternative facts. So even though people die from Measles, Mumps and rubella we'll ignore that for the alt-fact that though there is no evidence for it, autism is caused by vaccination.

And then children will die. That is not an alt-fact. That is the truth.

[Sriram]

I can see why you are such an admirer of Donald Trump's way of working. No need for research or even real facts. Just make them up.

Don't have that vaccine it will give you autism (even though there is no evidence for it) - on the other hand plenty of evidence for the effects of  MMR infections. But we now have alternative facts. So even though people die from Measles, Mumps and rubella we'll ignore that for the alt-fact that though there is no evidence for it, autism is caused by vaccination.

And then children will die. That is not an alt-fact. That is the truth.

? ? ? ?
 
As always you go off at a tangent!!!   

[Aruntraveller]

So you don't get measles, mumps and rubella in India then?

Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs.

[Outrider]

No...I am not advocating any specific method or practice and nor am I  advocating that science and clinical research should be discarded. Not at all!

Fair enough.

I am only saying that every idea, system and practice across the globe cannot be tested clinically. It is a practical impossibility.

Not really, it just takes time and will - it's not a 'practical impossibility', there's just not enough determination to make it happen, compounded by the fact that when some things are studied and demonstrated not to work there are vested interests that are always prepared to ignore that, for various reasons: see homeopathy as a suitable demonstration of that.

And even if something is tested clinically...there is no guarantee that the results are correct. Further research could easily reverse the first result.

That's a possibility - science isn't always as rigorous as we'd like it to be, but that's why we have agencies to review the findings of trials, and why we set minimum standards for what we'll accept and license as medicines, whilst legislating against people making medicinal claims unless they've undergone those minimum requirements.

So...many traditional practices could, should and inevitably will exist alongside clinically tested methods. That is my point. Merely because something does not have the tag of clinical testing....does not mean it is fraudulent or incorrect or cannot work.

It doesn't intrinsically, no. All treatments were unvalidated at some point. In the broader context, yes, there are undoubtedly some current treatments that have some efficacy that haven't been rigorously reviewed yet. Equally undoubtedly, there are a larger number of them that are either useless or significantly over-hyped.

In the narrower context of this particular case, though, the man's talking nonsense about bicarbonate of soda, is defrauding people in a country which is supposed to license medical claims, and deserves to have a number of books thrown at him for profiting from other people's pain and suffering.

O.

[Sriram]

Fair enough.

Not really, it just takes time and will - it's not a 'practical impossibility', there's just not enough determination to make it happen, compounded by the fact that when some things are studied and demonstrated not to work there are vested interests that are always prepared to ignore that, for various reasons: see homeopathy as a suitable demonstration of that.

That's a possibility - science isn't always as rigorous as we'd like it to be, but that's why we have agencies to review the findings of trials, and why we set minimum standards for what we'll accept and license as medicines, whilst legislating against people making medicinal claims unless they've undergone those minimum requirements.

It doesn't intrinsically, no. All treatments were unvalidated at some point. In the broader context, yes, there are undoubtedly some current treatments that have some efficacy that haven't been rigorously reviewed yet. Equally undoubtedly, there are a larger number of them that are either useless or significantly over-hyped.

In the narrower context of this particular case, though, the man's talking nonsense about bicarbonate of soda, is defrauding people in a country which is supposed to license medical claims, and deserves to have a number of books thrown at him for profiting from other people's pain and suffering.

O.

My argument was that anything we don't understand need not be 'woo' or a witch doctor treatment. May things may seem as nonsense but could be very effective. Yoga, fasting, vegetable diet and so on are examples that the west was not very favorable to till recent years.

Secondly, diet has been a part of medical treatment since ancient times. In Ayurveda in particular, diet and fasting are an integral and important part of the treatment.  Maybe clinical testing of such treatments has not been done....but millions are using the  treatments for centuries and are benefiting from them. Anecdotal evidence cannot be dismissed.

In fact, after some years of a lull,  Ayurveda is now becoming much more popular than before and many people (wealthy and educated) are migrating away from modern medicine to such traditional systems.  The Govt. is also investing heavily in the promotion and development of such traditional systems.

[Outrider]

My argument was that anything we don't understand need not be 'woo' or a witch doctor treatment. May things may seem as nonsense but could be very effective.

And I'm agreeing with you. However, until we've done some sort of investigation, we don't know which ones will be beneficial, and which just have tradition and cultural inertia on their side, or vested interested with marketing budgets.

Yoga, fasting, vegetable diet and so on are examples that the west was not very favorable to till recent years.

And now that they've been investigated, their benefits have been established and quantified.

Secondly, diet has been a part of medical treatment since ancient times. In Ayurveda in particular, diet and fasting are an integral and important part of the treatment.  Maybe clinical testing of such treatments has not been done....but millions are using the  treatments for centuries and are benefiting from them.

If you've not done testing, then you don't know if they've benefited from them or not, or if they're purely incidental to the result. That people got better who underwent a certain regimen does not mean that particular regimen had any bearing on their improvement.

Anecdotal evidence cannot be dismissed.

As it can't be relied upon, ultimately, not only can it be dismissed but it has to be.

In fact, after some years of a lull,  Ayurveda is now becoming much more popular than before and many people (wealthy and educated) are migrating away from modern medicine to such traditional systems.

What people want, though, isn't always what's demonstrably best for them.

The Govt. is also investing heavily in the promotion and development of such traditional systems.

Because it works or because it's popular?

O.

[Udayana]

...
In fact, after some years of a lull,  Ayurveda is now becoming much more popular than before and many people (wealthy and educated) are migrating away from modern medicine to such traditional systems.  The Govt. is also investing heavily in the promotion and development of such traditional systems.

If the government is investing in these without evidence based knowledge of efficacy, without researching these systems - that is a false economy. India does have the resources to investigate them properly.