Author Topic: The trouble with humanism  (Read 4348 times)

Shaker

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The trouble with humanism
« on: January 20, 2017, 11:53:09 AM »
A couple of recent interesting and thought-provoking threads on and around humanism have led me to clarify my thoughts on the subject - in particular, why I find the concept (perhaps the word specifically) problematic and why I typically don't regard myself and label myself as a humanist.

It certainly isn't an ideological issue. There have been umpteen humanist manifestos put out by various organisations over the lion's share of a century; it would be fair to say that I've probably read all of them or almost all and there's very little indeed - certainly nothing springs to mind - with which I disagree.

The problem I have is that in practice, when it comes to living out humanist ideals and principles, some humanists (I stress this since it clearly doesn't apply to all) turn humanism into anthropocentrism, where humans, human wants and needs, human relationships, human societies are the only areas of moral regard; anything outside of these - non-human animals; the biosphere or the environment generally - have at best instrumental value depending upon what they can do for humans and how they can serve human needs. It's doubtless an easy trap to fall into - the clue's in the name - but it is, in my estimation, wholly unjustifed. Irrational, even. It's a bold claim I know but I would say that nobody who is more or less scientifically literate and scientifically informed - especially about evolution - can maintain this anthropocentric attitude (fundamentally a religious attitude, I think) of humans as the summit of creation; the only rational creature, the only creative creature and so forth. This in effect makes humanism into a religion: take down God and simply put Man in his stead. This is a religion with humanity on the pedestal vacated by a god or gods, as August Comte amongst others was not only aware but about which he was absolutely explicit.

Not too many self-identified humanists seem to challenge this, in my experience. One who does, happily, is A. C. Grayling, in his (IMO rather good, especially in the second half) The God Argument: The Case Against Religion and For Humanism, which has such clear and persuasive arguments for humanism that in reading it it's the one and only time that I've almost been swayed into adopting the humanist label. This is doubtless because Grayling, in effect, agrees with me, or vice versa: humanism can't just be about human concerns:

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The principal subject matter of morality is, overwhelmingly, human relationships. As an aside, though, it should be noted that there are good arguments for including the animal and more generally the natural world in the sphere of moral concern. One source of this thought is an important distinction that is almost always overlooked both in informal and in philosophical discussions of morality. This is the distinction between moral agents and moral patients.

A moral agent is something that can choose, act, consider the consequences of both choices and actions, be held responsible for them, and be praised or blamed accordingly. The typical moral agent is a human being who has attained the age of reason, but it happens that corporate bodies are moral agents too - companies, governments, institutions - and they can be held accountable in the same way [...]

A moral patient is something that is worthy of moral regard in virtue of its ability to be affected by what moral agents do. Moral agents are also moral patients, because the activity of other moral agents can affect them. A chicken is not a moral agent, but it is a moral patient; it can suffer in that it can experience pain and fear, and it can take pleasure in strutting about and pecking the ground without nearby threats; and therefore it is worthy of moral regard - of being treated in a way that is accordant with and respectful of these facts about it.

[...]Efforts have been made to persuade us to count the animal world and indeed the whole of nature as objects of moral concern - quite rightly in my view. [...] I shall not pursue these points further here. I note them in order to point out that humanism is not just about humans in the sense of believing that the only worthwhile topics of moral and ethical debate are human beings and their societies. Humanism is about behaving like the best of civilised, thoughtful, responsible, considerate moral agents. We talk about being humane toward animals; that is, acting with the consideration and kindness that arise from conscious interest in their welfare. You would expect a humanist to be humane - a humane-ist you might say - in all things, including attitudes to nature and its non-human inhabitants.

(The God Argument, pp. 195-6).

I don't want to overdo the animal angle or to turn this into a point specifically about animal rights, environmentalism/conservation per se - that's for another time and place. These examples though - non-human animals; the environment - do point up the principle that Grayling's brand of humanism, and the only one that I can in good conscience sign up to, actually dethrones humanity from the central position some put it in and has implications that many would not, will not like; namely, that for a greater good sometimes some human needs (or mere wants) may have to take a back seat, and humanity come second for a change. With population out of control and climate change showing its hand, I suspect that in a not-too-distant future I won't live to see, this could lead to some uncomfortable consequences.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 11:58:08 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Udayana

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2017, 12:14:25 PM »
Generally agree, but how is your approach any less religious than (human centred) Humanism? Don't you just have something else on the pedestal? Something that may just turn out to be the same, in effect, as humanism?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Shaker

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 12:23:31 PM »
Generally agree, but how is your approach any less religious than (human centred) Humanism? Don't you just have something else on the pedestal? Something that may just turn out to be the same, in effect, as humanism?
I'd prefer to think of doing away with pedestals altogether.

The really thorny issues come when interests start to compete. For example, colossal swathes of jungle and rain forest are being chopped down to create plantations for palm oil and vast feed lots for beef cattle, both to serve human desires. However, in so doing, species (such orang utans) are losing their habitats and being squeezed toward extinction, and then there's the planet-wide effects of not only (a) losing a carbon trap but (b) pumping huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere through slashing and burning on such a vast scale.

This is only one example; there are countless more. It may not be humanism as such, but it's certainly an arrogant, hubristic anthropocentrism that allows us to act in such a way. Fouling our own nest. Grayling might say - I definitely would -: how about simply stopping this? Why do the human interests have to come first each and every time to the detriment of other species and the planet?

This is why getting people to wake up and do something about climate change is pretty largely fruitless. Doing something about it means making some changes in behaviour/lifestyle, and if these are deemed to impinge on lifestyle in a negative way - are seen as inconvenient - then most people won't bother. On an entirely secular view, selfishness seems to be the besetting 'original sin' of humanity.

We have brains big enough to create the technology which has led to the position we're in environmentally, but not big enough that we can consider the world outside of the bag of skin we inhabit. Well, for most people, anyway. I don't intend this to be virtue signalling of any kind, only pointing out that it's possible to set aside the selfish, the local, the immediate, the proximate and the short-term. Unfortunately, you have to want to, and globally most people don't seem to want to - which in itself is a strike against the kind of humans-first, humans-last thinking I've criticised above.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 01:04:52 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Sriram

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2017, 12:54:13 PM »



I think it is important to acknowledge the gradation from lesser animals to more complex animals to humans.  Humans may not be the centre of creation but they are  the most complex and most developed species in existence today. 

The Hindu system of accepting all animals (and even plants) as part of a large family is important, while also accepting that humans are undoubtedly the most aware and most developed in terms of universality, altruism, knowledge and love.


Shaker

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 12:57:05 PM »
I think it is important to acknowledge the gradation from lesser animals [...]

Aaaaaaaaaand there's the problem right there.

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Humans may not be the centre of creation

But when you speak of "the gradation from lesser animals to more complex animals to humans" you pretty well put them at the top.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 01:02:31 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Aruntraveller

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2017, 01:20:53 PM »
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the most aware and most developed in terms of universality, altruism, knowledge and love.

I dont even know how you can begin to make that claim. You know what dolphins are thiking about? Who are you Dr Doolittle?

And whilst we are about it what about all the opposite attributes of the above which the human species also excels at? Shouldnt that be in the mix just for some kind of corrective balance?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Shaker

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2017, 01:24:59 PM »
And whilst we are about it what about all the opposite attributes of the above which the human species also excels at? Shouldnt that be in the mix just for some kind of corrective balance?

Like this, you mean:

universality Insularity
altruism Selfishness
knowledge Ignorance
love Hatred
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Sriram

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2017, 06:00:22 AM »


There is no doubt that we are the dominant species right now. Also, there is no other species that is as universal, altruistic and knowledgeable as we are (with all our faults). There is no doubt about this at all.

Shaker

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2017, 08:42:40 AM »

There is no doubt that we are the dominant species right now. Also, there is no other species that is as universal

What does that even mean?
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altruistic and knowledgeable as we are (with all our faults). There is no doubt about this at all.
There is no doubt that we are the cruellest, most aggressive species. There is no doubt about this at all.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Aruntraveller

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2017, 08:59:05 AM »

There is no doubt that we are the dominant species right now. Also, there is no other species that is as universal, altruistic and knowledgeable as we are (with all our faults). There is no doubt about this at all.

Assertion on all but the universal part - although that is, strictly speaking, also assertion as to claim universality in it's strictest sense means that you have knowledge of any other life forms that exist in the universe. Clearly you don't. Therefore all assertion.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

torridon

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2017, 09:06:14 AM »


I think it is important to acknowledge the gradation from lesser animals to more complex animals to humans.  Humans may not be the centre of creation but they are  the most complex and most developed species in existence today. 

The Hindu system of accepting all animals (and even plants) as part of a large family is important, while also accepting that humans are undoubtedly the most aware and most developed in terms of universality, altruism, knowledge and love.

I think it is important to acknowledge that the notion lesser and more 'developed' in this context is a value judgement of the self-proclaimed superior species.  When Spanish conquistadors arrived in South and Central America they would have had this condescending attitude to the indigenous peoples and saw it as their prerogative to supplant native cultures with European thinking and practices.  But underneath their missionising zeal was a crude lust for gold, wealth for themselves and riches for the Spanish Crown; in the end the pre-Columbian cultures were decimated by the more 'civilised' Spanish so that calls into question notions of cultural superiority.  We could see this as metaphor for the human species; we are capable of greatness and sublime beauty and yet we are also rapacious and exploitative and short sighted.

Sriram

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2017, 10:05:37 AM »
I think it is important to acknowledge that the notion lesser and more 'developed' in this context is a value judgement of the self-proclaimed superior species.  When Spanish conquistadors arrived in South and Central America they would have had this condescending attitude to the indigenous peoples and saw it as their prerogative to supplant native cultures with European thinking and practices.  But underneath their missionising zeal was a crude lust for gold, wealth for themselves and riches for the Spanish Crown; in the end the pre-Columbian cultures were decimated by the more 'civilised' Spanish so that calls into question notions of cultural superiority.  We could see this as metaphor for the human species; we are capable of greatness and sublime beauty and yet we are also rapacious and exploitative and short sighted.


Oh...come on!! You guys are being pretty silly in not acknowledging the obvious!

Humans are the only species with the intelligence and knowledge to consciously take decisions about the world and our lives....as well as the lives of other species. We humans are also universal enough to consider all species as one family. We are the only species which can and will consciously preserve and take care of other species.  Love the young of any species as though they are our own.

No doubt there are still many who are selfish and callous. That does not detract from the many who are selfless, humane, loving and caring.

You guys have a problem in acknowledging something as simple and straight forward as this because you think that it will amount to accepting a direction and goal to evolution...leading to Intelligent design.  :D

You guys keep maintaining that all species are the same and that there is essentially no difference between them.... because this attitude is crucial to the random gene variation idea.

Aruntraveller

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2017, 10:14:47 AM »
You guy are having difficulty understanding what we are saying.

You guy are not acknowledging that for all our intelligence we have somehow manages to fuck the planet up so much that we may well be responsible for our own demise.

You guy do not understand that no other animal destroys it's own habitat in the way humans do, is that truly intelligent?
 
You guy seem to subscribe to the Trump definition of intelligence - whish is 'I say I am intelligent, therefore I am'.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Samuel

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2017, 04:10:25 PM »
I broadly agree with you Shaker, but I would probe you a bit deeper

How do you think we should regard the concept of morality in the first instance? Objectively it is an evolved social construct and aids our co-existence, but there is no rational beyond that pragmatic view that requires us to apply it to anything beyond our own species. Or is there?

It just sounds a little bit like you edge towards an objective morality, which of course I know you would dismiss. And rightly so.

If animals and the environment are deserving of moral regard, what argument would you give to justify that? From whose perspective are they so deserving?

The very nature of morality as a subjective human construct suggests to me that such moral regard can not exist without humans to provide it, to reflect on it and benefit from it, placing us necessarily right at the centre of the framework.

If our sense of morality evolved to benefit our species, how then can we justify a morality that places human needs second to a posited moral duty to the environment? To me that is elevating a single human quality to a universal 'truth'. Experience tells me you would reject such a proposition.

I prefer to stick to the specifics - unnecessary suffering is bad for victim and perpetrator and we damage the biosphere at our peril. I feel there is solid, rational ground behind those ideas, which are essentially at the core of any moral regard we might show the environment. Attempting to make a more general philosophy out of it only makes things confusing... enter humanism.







A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Shaker

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2017, 05:08:26 PM »
Good and thought-provoking points, Samuel - I'll get back to this when I can give it the time and care your points deserve.

Excellent to see you back, btw.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SusanDoris

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2017, 06:06:43 PM »
Good and thought-provoking points, Samuel - I'll get back to this when I can give it the time and care your points deserve.

Excellent to see you back, btw.

I agree with Shaker - a super post.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2017, 08:14:18 PM »
Shaker. Are you building up to declaring yourself the Maitreya?

I'm genuinely interested in what I think is a proposal to look outwards and give nature more respect.
What is your proposal to cultivate this.

How do you think what is in fact a neo hippy approach stands alongside your forum persona?

Shaker

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2017, 08:24:18 PM »
Shaker. Are you building up to declaring yourself the Maitreya?

I'm genuinely interested in what I think is a proposal to look outwards and give nature more respect.
What is your proposal to cultivate this.
I don't know that I know, in practical terms. It can be encouraged perhaps, but can you put it there if it isn't there in the first place? I don't know. I would like to think that most people have an inherent and innate 'feel' for nature and its inhabitants; E. O. Wilson even coined a term for it - biophilia. I'd hope that it can be encouraged, starting early. Some people are now starting to talk about children in the developed world suffering from nature deficit disorder, living such built-up, urbanised lives that they are cut off from experiencing (in all ways) nature. That to me indicates something very, very wrong in the modern psyche. It's nothing new - it's said that some city evacuees sent to the countryside during WWII had never seen a cow in real life before and didn't connect the animal with what it produced - but is believed by some to be the worst it's ever been.

http://tinyurl.com/hzhs2do

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How do you think what is in fact a neo hippy approach stands alongside your forum persona?
Why is it a "neo-hippy" approach, and what does anything have to do with my forum persona, whatever that may be?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 08:27:17 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2017, 08:58:19 PM »
Samuel's post was already making me think of the thread that we had some time ago about seeing nature as sacred without any religious belief attached. Even more so reading Shaker's last post.

I grew up in a family that had little regard for the natural world, beyond the odd comment about how nice the autumn leaves look. But they always felt better for going out into green spaces, whether it was the local park or up a Welsh mountainside (in the car of course).  "Being in nature" is a fluffy bunny New Age cliche but that doesn't change the fact that there's something healing about it. Which suggests that we have some kind of relationship to it that isn't respect so much as a kind of interdependency. (maybe you could dump the 'inter' bit there as I think the rest of the natural world will be just fine without us screwing it up.)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2017, 11:50:21 PM »
I don't know that I know, in practical terms. It can be encouraged perhaps, but can you put it there if it isn't there in the first place? I don't know. I would like to think that most people have an inherent and innate 'feel' for nature and its inhabitants; E. O. Wilson even coined a term for it - biophilia. I'd hope that it can be encouraged, starting early. Some people are now starting to talk about children in the developed world suffering from nature deficit disorder, living such built-up, urbanised lives that they are cut off from experiencing (in all ways) nature. That to me indicates something very, very wrong in the modern psyche. It's nothing new - it's said that some city evacuees sent to the countryside during WWII had never seen a cow in real life before and didn't connect the animal with what it produced - but is believed by some to be the worst it's ever been.

http://tinyurl.com/hzhs2do
Why is it a "neo-hippy" approach, and what does anything have to do with my forum persona, whatever that may be?

Can a beastly approach to people being beastly to the environment save the world?
Or does the revolution start with ones self?

torridon

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2017, 06:25:12 AM »

I grew up in a family that had little regard for the natural world, beyond the odd comment about how nice the autumn leaves look. But they always felt better for going out into green spaces, whether it was the local park or up a Welsh mountainside (in the car of course).  "Being in nature" is a fluffy bunny New Age cliche but that doesn't change the fact that there's something healing about it. Which suggests that we have some kind of relationship to it that isn't respect so much as a kind of interdependency. (maybe you could dump the 'inter' bit there as I think the rest of the natural world will be just fine without us screwing it up.)

I see it as 'restorative', or 're-balancing'; it's putting ourselves back where we came from.  The agricultural revolution introduced a separateness between us and nature; before, we were undeniably part of nature, after, nature was something separate, something to be controlled and tasted perhaps from time to time.  Going out into nature now is like going home and is full of subtle richnesses that we have forgotten in our human-only city life.

Sriram

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2017, 07:20:41 AM »
I see it as 'restorative', or 're-balancing'; it's putting ourselves back where we came from.  The agricultural revolution introduced a separateness between us and nature; before, we were undeniably part of nature, after, nature was something separate, something to be controlled and tasted perhaps from time to time.  Going out into nature now is like going home and is full of subtle richnesses that we have forgotten in our human-only city life.


I agree with that. Separating ourselves from other parts of nature and treating them as accessories, is absurd.  We all are one family.   

I wonder how Christianity and Judaism developed this sort of  a separation from Nature. I  would have thought that our relationship and interdependence with other parts of Nature would be  obvious even to ancient communities.....in fact more so than to modern people I should think.

However, thinking of ourselves as no different from other animal species is also wrong. Like siblings in lower classes at school, they need to be cared for  but we should never equate ourselves with them or take our cue from them. That would amount to going backwards.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 07:25:39 AM by Sriram »

Sriram

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2017, 07:57:43 AM »

Further to the above post, I want to mention the concept of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam (the world is one family).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasudhaiva_Kutumbakam

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The phrase Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam (Sanskrit: वसुधैव कुटुम्बकम्) consists of several words: "vasudhā", the earth; "ēva" = indeed is; and "kutumbakam", family.

The phrase appears in Maha Upanishad.[3][4][5] It is in Chapter 6 of the text.[6] This verse of Maha Upanishad is engraved in the entrance hall of the parliament of India.[1]

The original verse is contained in the Mahopanishad VI.71-73.[1] Subsequent ślokas go on to say that those who have no attachments go on to find the Brahman (the one supreme, universal Spirit that is the origin and support of the phenomenal universe). The context of this verse is to describe as one of the attributes of an individual who has attained the highest level of spiritual progress, and one who is capable of performing his wordly duties without attachment to material possessions.[8]

The text has been influential in the major Hindu literature that followed it.

Dr N Radhakrishnan, former director of the Gandhi Smriti and Darshan Samiti, believes that the Gandhian vision of holistic development and respect for all forms of life; nonviolent conflict resolution embedded in the acceptance of nonviolence both as a creed and strategy; were an extension of the ancient Indian concept of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam.[11]

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2017, 05:43:37 PM »


I wonder how Christianity and Judaism developed this sort of  a separation from Nature.
Well we know that that really took off after the start of the so called enlightenment but humanists tend to keep that bit quiet.

Bramble

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Re: The trouble with humanism
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2017, 05:56:26 PM »
God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground." (Genesis 1:28)