Former President Trump

[Rhiannon]

It also achieves the effect of supporting people in the US who are feeling bigly threatened at the moment. I was speaking with friends in Mississipi yesterday and they were very pleased that some of the Uk were demonstrating against Trump. I dont think some people here are fully aware of what is potentially coming down the track in terms of individuals rights in the States.

I do follow it, Trent, and it is alarming. As I have just said though, I think the resources could have been better employed elsewhere. In a way I'm pleased that we protested too. But short term pleasure doesn't achieve much. The effort put in could have been channelled towards something that actually produces more tangible results. And as I said, Trump will react by being more Trump, it's what his kind do.

[Rhiannon]

For those who have twitter, the long thread on how the Queen snubbed Trump silently with brooches.


https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuraiKnitter/status/1018570246037352449

Can be read without having Twitter.

Every now and then the queen rocks.

[Aruntraveller]

I do follow it, Trent, and it is alarming. As I have just said though, I think the resources could have been better employed elsewhere. In a way I'm pleased that we protested too. But short term pleasure doesn't achieve much. The effort put in could have been channelled towards something that actually produces more tangible results. And as I said, Trump will react by being more Trump, it's what his kind do.

To an extent I agree. But as was pointed  out elsewhere on social media (Godwin approaching) appeasement has been tried before and was proven lacking. I also do think the support it gives others across the pond should not be underestimated and from that pov I think it was worth it.

Quite how to deal with this particularly gross distortion of manchild I'm not sure. And I'm not sure anybody else is sure either.

[Rhiannon]

To an extent I agree. But as was pointed  out elsewhere on social media (Godwin approaching) appeasement has been tried before and was proven lacking. I also do think the support it gives others across the pond should not be underestimated and from that pov I think it was worth it.

Quite how to deal with this particularly gross distortion of manchild I'm not sure. And I'm not sure anybody else is sure either.

What on earth makes you think I was even beginning to suggest appeasement as a solution?

[Aruntraveller]

What on earth makes you think I was even beginning to suggest appeasement as a solution?

Apologies, didn't mean to.  I was following a line of thought  prompted by the aforementioned social media post. But just what is the solution? Ignore him he'll do what he wants. Demonstrate, he'll do what he wants. Point out he's lying, fake news. Point out his actual recorded words, fake news.  I don't see a way of deposing this repugnant excuse for a human being. Although that being said his Helsinki performance does appear to be causing some to pause for thought.

[Rhiannon]

Apologies, didn't mean to.  I was following a line of thought  prompted by the aforementioned social media post. But just what is the solution? Ignore him he'll do what he wants. Demonstrate, he'll do what he wants. Point out he's lying, fake news. Point out his actual recorded words, fake news.  I don't see a way of deposing this repugnant excuse for a human being. Although that being said his Helsinki performance does appear to be causing some to pause for thought.

I spent a lot of my life trying to manage a person like Trump. They will just say that black is white and some people will fall for it. In the end the only way to deal with it is to remove it from your life.

I strongly suspect that the US intelligence services will deal with the Trump problem one way or another.

[Shaker]

Apologies, didn't mean to.  I was following a line of thought  prompted by the aforementioned social media post. But just what is the solution? Ignore him he'll do what he wants.

Possibly, though it's not a given. Just a day or two ago, somebody on the steam-driven wireless was saying that as the malignant narcissist that he is, pretty much the only way of needling him is to ignore him; simply to look the other way and not give him the attention he craves.

I'll defend the right to peaceful protest to the last ditch, but the protests in that regard may well have been counter-productive. Trump is precisely the sort of arse who sees large-scale, clearly organised protests against him and takes that as confirmation that since these are people he hates, he's doing the right thing.

[Rhiannon]

Possibly, though it's not a given. Just a day or two ago, somebody on the steam-driven wireless was saying that as the malignant narcissist that he is, pretty much the only way of needling him is to ignore him; simply to look the other way and not give him the attention he craves.

I'll defend the right to peaceful protest to the last ditch, but the protests in that regard may well have been counter-productive. Trump is precisely the sort of arse who sees large-scale, clearly organised protests against him and takes that as confirmation that since these are people he hates, he's doing the right thing.

Exactly. The constructive thing to do is focus on the things that make a tangible difference. The blimp money going to free medical care non profits in the States instead would have been a start.

[Nearly Sane]

I spent a lot of my life trying to manage a person like Trump. They will just say that black is white and some people will fall for it. In the end the only way to deal with it is to remove it from your life.

I strongly suspect that the US intelligence services will deal with the Trump problem one way or another.

He's coming up for 2 years in the job. In about another 20 months, we will be back in campaign mode. Any legal process of remove will likely take that ling. If there is another method then that would be disastrous all round. And with any method we end up with President Pence.

[wigginhall]

Some responses sound very rational to me.   But Trump isn't a rational being, and people feel enraged, frightened, upset, by him, and their response is not going to be rational.   Well, politics isn't.   For example, if you have fascists on the streets in the US, (emboldened by Trump), do we just sit at home and anayze it?

[Nearly Sane]

Some responses sound very rational to me.   But Trump isn't a rational being, and people feel enraged, frightened, upset, by him, and their response is not going to be rational.   Well, politics isn't.   For example, if you have fascists on the streets in the US, (emboldened by Trump), do we just sit at home and anayze it?

Surely though that's a false dichotomy? The choices aren't flying a blimp balloon or sit at home?

[Rhiannon]

Some responses sound very rational to me.   But Trump isn't a rational being, and people feel enraged, frightened, upset, by him, and their response is not going to be rational.   Well, politics isn't.   For example, if you have fascists on the streets in the US, (emboldened by Trump), do we just sit at home and anayze it?

My great uncle got the shit kicked out of him by blackshirts marching for Moseley when he tried to intervene. Not sure it really achieved much though.

[Rhiannon]

He's coming up for 2 years in the job. In about another 20 months, we will be back in campaign mode. Any legal process of remove will likely take that ling. If there is another method then that would be disastrous all round. And with any method we end up with President Pence.

Are we still convinced Pence is scarier?

[Nearly Sane]

I had missed this one of Trump's lies


http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/396630-trump-falsely-claims-for-third-time-that-reagan-didnt-win-wisconsin

[Shaker]

Are we still convinced Pence is scarier?

Comparing track records, many are.

[Nearly Sane]

Are we still convinced Pence is scarier?

In that I still think he could achieve more that I would dislike yes.

[jeremyp]

But we know that.

Funny you should mention the police. I was reading about the impact on the police. They were dealing with Trump's visit, the WC, and then the protests on top. That comes out of police budgets for dealing with the everyday things that impact people. And the accommodation that frontline officers got during the visit and protests were mattresses on a floor.

So what do you propose? People keep their feelings to themselves because protest is expensive for the state?

I dont think anyone can be in any doubt that we aren't a police state,

And yet here you are objecting to peaceful protest.

But Trump is not the kind of person to be cowed by people hating him; like any narcissist it won't result in a period of self-reflection, but rage, hate and a determination to be even more himself and to do more of the things that people don't like. In that sense I fear the protests won't just be ineffective, but counter productive.

The only way to deal with Trump is first for the American voters to vote Republicans out of congress later this year and Trump out of the White House in 2020. I do not know whether these demonstrations will help or hinder that process but I do know that censoring legitimate protest because you think it won't achieve anything and because you think it is too expensive is a really bad idea for democracy.

Is there going to be a panel to decide which protests are cost effective and should therefore be allowed? Who's going to be on it?

And the Trump baby blimp reminds me of the trend for signing petitions and then thinking that your bit is done; the crowdfunding for that could have been put into refugee relief or donated to any number of non profits Stateside, but instead we opted for a self-congratulatory empty gesture.

People recently spent thousand of pounds to go and watch grown men kick balls around fields. Shouldn't they have donated that money to charity instead?

[Rhiannon]

Hang on, Jeremy, that is bang out of order, I didn't object to the peaceful protest, I questioned whether it was counter productive and the resources better used elsewhere. I'd like an apology for that. There's no point in engaging with the rest of your argument of you are just going to indulge in wilful misrepresentation.

[jeremyp]

Hang on, Jeremy, that is bang out of order, I didn't object to the peaceful protest,

Well that is what it looks like from your post, so no, it's not bang out of order.

I questioned whether it was counter productive and the resources better used elsewhere.

i.e. you were objecting to a peaceful protest.

I'd like an apology for that.

I'm not apologising for what I see as an accurate interpretation of your posts. Perhaps you would like to explain how saying people should not protest because a) it has no real effect and b) costs the tax payer money is not objecting to the protest.

[Rhiannon]

Well that is what it looks like from your post, so no, it's not bang out of order.i.e. you were objecting to a peaceful protest.
I'm not apologising for what I see as an accurate interpretation of your posts. Perhaps you would like to explain how saying people should not protest because a) it has no real effect and b) costs the tax payer money is not objecting to the protest.

But you accused me of supporting a 'police state'. That isn't objecting to one specific protest (and I question it, not object to it). You are accusing me of objecting to the right to peaceful protest full stop. And for that I want an apology.

[Shaker]

Well that is what it looks like from your post, so no, it's not bang out of order.i.e. you were objecting to a peaceful protest.
I'm not apologising for what I see as an accurate interpretation of your posts. Perhaps you would like to explain how saying people should not protest because a) it has no real effect and b) costs the tax payer money is not objecting to the protest.

Rhi is quite right. Questioning the usefulness or effectiveness of a protest isn't the same as saying it shouldn't have happened and it sure as shit isn't a call for censorship - which word you used, not her, AFAIK.

[wigginhall]

My great uncle got the shit kicked out of him by blackshirts marching for Moseley when he tried to intervene. Not sure it really achieved much though.

Well, I have been impressed by women's opposition to Trump in the US.   They used their imagination and creativity on the streets, and also in the media, to oppose misogyny, and white supremacism.   

I thought that the battle of Cable Street was a big setback for fascism in the UK.

[Rhiannon]

Well, I have been impressed by women's opposition to Trump in the US.   They used their imagination and creativity on the streets, and also in the media, to oppose misogyny, and white supremacism.   

I thought that the battle of Cable Street was a big setback for fascism in the UK.

And the efforts of women in the US feels like something tangible to me. It's taking the fight to where it is needed.

[Nearly Sane]

Well that is what it looks like from your post, so no, it's not bang out of order.i.e. you were objecting to a peaceful protest.
I'm not apologising for what I see as an accurate interpretation of your posts. Perhaps you would like to explain how saying people should not protest because a) it has no real effect and b) costs the tax payer money is not objecting to the protest.

Reads like a complete misinterpretation of what Rhiannon said. She questioned one specific protest on a cost benefit issue, didn't say it should be banned. didn't object to the right to hold it, and didn't say there should be some restriction based on cost.

[Nearly Sane]

And the efforts of women in the US feels like something tangible to me. It's taking the fight to where it is needed.

And is about specific issues, not just We Hate Trump.