President Elect Trump

[Nearly Sane]

Bill Maher is a liberal left wing.commentator held in high record in some circles, just wanted to enlighten people that there are different opinions.

Not sure what your routine sneer adds much value frankly. 😀

I know who Bill Maher is. I don't see why it is of any significant value. Pointing that out isn't a 'sneer'

[jakswan]

I know who Bill Maher is. I don't see why it is of any significant value. Pointing that out isn't a 'sneer'

As you refered to Bill as someone I presumed you had no idea who he was.

I explained why I thought it was of value, feel free to disagree or ignore.

[Rhiannon]

Well I find it very hard to imagine a president worse than Trump, if or when Pence takes over, and is as predicted, I shall eat humble pie.

Just before the planet turns radioactive and we all disintegrate.

[Nearly Sane]

As you refered to Bill as someone I presumed you had no idea who he was.

I explained why I thought it was of value, feel free to disagree or ignore.

because effectively he is just someone here. That other people might think of him highly doesn't validate his opinion on this or anything else. We already know there are different opinions that's why we are having the discussion. That Bill Maher might take one opinion doesn't seem to add anything.

[jeremyp]

Now Trump's really gone and done it.

He's actually made Theresa May look good in comparison to him.

One can only have much sympathy for Theresa....

... that's Theresa May Scrivener, the original target of his rebuttal to our PM's statement https://twitter.com/Masters_JamesD/status/936245534335041536

[jakswan]

because effectively he is just someone here. That other people might think of him highly doesn't validate his opinion on this or anything else.

Why this has to be so drawn out?

So your statement:-
Trump is failing to get things through as trentvoyager pointed out. were someone to do so, and Pence has form, then it would be worse

I assumed was opinion since you can't know it would be worse and Trent's analysis is flawed anyway. Trump does have a fan club but is hated, in the US, I was in New York last year, 'impeach the freak' T-Shirts etc, Trump wants to feel important, which makes him very dangerous.

I think he isn't getting stuff through because of the political system in the US, not because of his preoccupation with adoring fans. But hey I'm no expert in US politics.

So instead of explaining all that and being forced to learn more about Pence, I cited a well known political commentator in the US who has a different opinion.

Which was a counter narrative to 'he will be worse' for Floo's benefit more than anything.

Floo may have ignored the comment or simply noted it I suggest you do the same because it must get very boring querying every post that you don't think 'adds much value'.

[Nearly Sane]

Why this has to be so drawn out?

So your statement:-
Trump is failing to get things through as trentvoyager pointed out. were someone to do so, and Pence has form, then it would be worse

I assumed was opinion since you can't know it would be worse and Trent's analysis is flawed anyway. Trump does have a fan club but is hated, in the US, I was in New York last year, 'impeach the freak' T-Shirts etc, Trump wants to feel important, which makes him very dangerous.

I think he isn't getting stuff through because of the political system in the US, not because of his preoccupation with adoring fans. But hey I'm no expert in US politics.

So instead of explaining all that and being forced to learn more about Pence, I cited a well known political commentator in the US who has a different opinion.

Which was a counter narrative to 'he will be worse' for Floo's benefit more than anything.

Floo may have ignored the comment or simply noted it I suggest you do the same because it must get very boring querying every post that you don't think 'adds much value'.

Sorry what is being so drawn out? I happen to disagree with your posts here, why would that be being drawn out?


And yes, it is opinion but some opinion has value evidence such as Pence's record, and some opinion doesn't. And no, you can't know for certain but since no one has said that, why the straw?

I don't see how your comments that there are some people who dislike Trump and his supporters relates to how much Trump tries to appeal to his own supporters, or why you think that that makes trentvoyager's statement flawed.


And I don't see why citing someone's opinion, even if they are well known, is a useful argument.

[jakswan]

Sorry what is being so drawn out? I happen to disagree with your posts here, why would that be being drawn out?

Look if I changed my original post to read something like 'opinion as to who would be worst President is split on both sides, even well known liberal commentators like Maher have stated as that he didn't think Pence would be worse' would that do?

And yes, it is opinion but some opinion has value evidence such as Pence's record, and some opinion doesn't. And no, you can't know for certain but since no one has said that, why the straw?

Its not a strawman to ask for clarification as to what you meant.

I don't see how your comments that there are some people who dislike Trump and his supporters relates to how much Trump tries to appeal to his own supporters, or why you think that that makes trentvoyager's statement flawed.

I said his analysis of Trump was flawed in my opinion. Trump strikes me the way he carries and conducts himself as an egotistical dick, the look on his face 'I'm in the important one' he doesn't care if people hate him or adore him as long as its about him.

That is besides the point though, Trent claimed that Trump was not getting stuff through because of his concern for his adoring fans, he hasn't got stuff through because the US political system has stopped him, that same system would work against Pence.

I don't know much about Pence but it is Trump's ego that makes him very dangerous, its not just his politics he doesn't seem to have an ideology, its just about him.

And I don't see why citing someone's opinion, even if they are well known, is a useful argument.

You never cite someone in an argument who has more expertise in the field than yourself?

[Nearly Sane]

Look if I changed my original post to read something like 'opinion as to who would be worst President is split on both sides, even well known liberal commentators like Maher have stated as that he didn't think Pence would be worse' would that do?

Its not a strawman to ask for clarification as to what you meant.

I said his analysis of Trump was flawed in my opinion. Trump strikes me the way he carries and conducts himself as an egotistical dick, the look on his face 'I'm in the important one' he doesn't care if people hate him or adore him as long as its about him.

That is besides the point though, Trent claimed that Trump was not getting stuff through because of his concern for his adoring fans, he hasn't got stuff through because the US political system has stopped him, that same system would work against Pence.

I don't know much about Pence but it is Trump's ego that makes him very dangerous, its not just his politics he doesn't seem to have an ideology, its just about him.

You never cite someone in an argument who has more expertise in the field than yourself?

Again you just cite the opinion as if opinion is argument. That Maher is liked by some 'left wing' people doesn't validate the opinion.

It's a straw man because no one has said they know that Pence would be worse And yet that is the position you put forward.


Trent's position that Trump was more concerned with playing to those who followed him than getting legislation through. You seem to be misrepresenting that. He suggested that Pence as a successful politician with a record and a focus would be more successful. That doesn't say that there the system would not be an issue. So more straw.

If his ego gets in the way of actually achieving things then it makes him less dangerous which is Trent's point.

I often cite people who have more expertise. You just haven't justified that Maher is more expert other than say some people agree with him. Indeed you did say you just cited it to show there were different viewpoints - could you make up your mind what the point is that you are trying to make?

[jakswan]

Again you just cite the opinion as if opinion is argument. That Maher is liked by some 'left wing' people doesn't validate the opinion.

No, I don't have an opinion that he would be worse, I don't know enough about Pence to really have that strong an opinion. Someone I know on the left of Politics has a different opinion than you and is well regarded in some circles hence the quote.

It's a straw man because no one has said they know that Pence would be worse And yet that is the position you put forward.

Trump is failing to get things through as trentvoyager pointed out. were someone to do so, and Pence has form, then it would be worse

I asked you if it was your opinion that he would be worse, you didn't say could you said would. I assumed it was your opinion and asked for clarification.

Trent's position that Trump was more concerned with playing to those who followed him than getting legislation through. You seem to be misrepresenting that.

No I disagree that Trumps main concern that he plays well to his adoring fans, as I've explained he has a massive ego and wants to be the 'big man', that is my opinion, Trent has another opinion, which is fine.

He suggested that Pence as a successful politician with a record and a focus would be more successful. That doesn't say that there the system would not be an issue. So more straw.

He also suggetsed and I quote:-
 he (Pence) doesn't have Trumps need for constant approval from adoring admirers which, whilst annoying, actually distracts him from his proper job of being president.

So not straw, again.

To accuse me of strawmen is to accuse me of effectively lying, please stop making unfounded accusations.

If his ego gets in the way of actually achieving things then it makes him less dangerous which is Trent's point.

His ego might well get in the way of him achieving things however what has stopped Trump is the US system. Fine take your point that Pence as a seasoned pro might prove to be more effective although this is debatble as he likely to feel more accountable to the Republican Party, Trump seems to ignore them and Pence would still have to fight the US system, a system he is part of.

I often cite people who have more expertise. You just haven't justified that Maher is more expert other than say some people agree with him. Indeed you did say you just cited it to show there were different viewpoints - could you make up your mind what the point is that you are trying to make?

Maher is more expert than me, I don't need to justify that to you.

Honestly 'hey did you know that Maher a seasoned commentator from the left of US politics has a view on this matter and its this'. It is just an observation don't find it adds much value to the discussion then don't read it and go on with your day, no need to get your knickers in a twist.

[Aruntraveller]

as I've explained he has a massive ego and wants to be the 'big man', that is my opinion, Trent has another opinion, which is fine.

Nope, Trent has exactly the same perception. But Trump's need to have his ego stroked actually takes him away from the business of being a 'real' president. That is my point. Or one of them. Anyway stop it you two - it is only a matter of degree. They are both fucking disasters waiting to happen.

[jakswan]

Nope, Trent has exactly the same perception. But Trump's need to have his ego stroked actually takes him away from the business of being a 'real' president. That is my point. Or one of them. Anyway stop it you two - it is only a matter of degree. They are both fucking disasters waiting to happen.

Well yes and no actually. I think you on the left have been parading demonisation of right wing politicians as an everyday occurrence, May, Gove, IDS, Johnson they are all shit, but Corbyn, Macdonnell, Balls and Umunna all flip flop to some degree.

Meanwhile a real demon emerges, Trump, very dangerous, you are in danger of crying wolf. I don't know much about Pence, he seems atypical Republican, not in my political landscape as a centrist, but Trump is the real deal, very dangerous.

Trump is a egotistical dick, on that surely we can agree. 

[Aruntraveller]

Well yes and no actually. I think you on the left have been parading demonisation of right wing politicians as an everyday occurrence, May, Gove, IDS, Johnson they are all shit, but Corbyn, Macdonnell, Balls and Umunna all flip flop to some degree.

Meanwhile a real demon emerges, Trump, very dangerous, you are in danger of crying wolf. I don't know much about Pence, he seems atypical Republican, not in my political landscape as a centrist, but Trump is the real deal, very dangerous.

Trump is a egotistical dick, on that surely we can agree.

And those on the right don't demonise Corbyn? Didn't a poster on here post something about Corbyn being more dangerous for the UK than Brexit. Or perhaps I dreamt that.

Anyway nice of you to include me as being on the left as if it was one single mass with but one set of thoughts. Life must be very easy and convenient for you with all those ready made boxes you have for people. FTR I have never liked McDonnell, although I have to admit that I have come round to Corbyn's style and much of his substance. And also FTR IDS is an absolute shit.

[jakswan]

And those on the right don't demonise Corbyn? Didn't a poster on here post something about Corbyn being more dangerous for the UK than Brexit. Or perhaps I dreamt that.

Possibly depends on how you define it. 'Trump is a egotistical dick' is me demonising Trump, 'Corbyn's economic policy might damaging to the economy says bank' is me being critical of policy and not demonising Corbyn.

I'm certainly to the right of you but a centrist in the UK political landscape.

Anyway nice of you to include me as being on the left as if it was one single mass with but one set of thoughts. Life must be very easy and convenient for you with all those ready made boxes you have for people.

You know what hypocrisy is don't you?

FTR I have never liked McDonnell, although I have to admit that I have come round to Corbyn's style and much of his substance.

I would like to explore that but not on thread about Trump, my initial reaction is that I like Corbyn but don't think his policies or ideology will work.

And also FTR IDS is an absolute shit.

Meanwhile Trump...........

[Aruntraveller]

You know what hypocrisy is don't you?

I do.

However if you are assuming I think of all those on the right as being the same, you are mistaken in your assumption.

Therefore your implied accusation of hypocrisy has no basis.

[Harrowby Hall]

I don't know much about Pence, he seems atypical Republican, not in my political landscape as a centrist,

I understand only too well the enthusiasm which grips us as we type our considered(!) views - but a little proof reading before pressing "Post" would help to ensure that our intended meaning is clear.

Atypical ... or ... a typical?

[Nearly Sane]

No, I don't have an opinion that he would be worse, I don't know enough about Pence to really have that strong an opinion. Someone I know on the left of Politics has a different opinion than you and is well regarded in some circles hence the quote.

Which is exactly that just an opinion with no argument. And Agin that there are some people who like Maher doesn't give any validation to that opinion

I asked you if it was your opinion that he would be worse, you didn't say could you said would. I assumed it was your opinion and asked for clarification.

I have no idea what point you think you are making here with would/could. As pointed out no one has claimed to KNOW that Pence would be worse but I think he would be because of the reasons put forward by trentvoyager  amongst others things. Note trentvoyager explained those reasons which is exactly not what you have done in citing Maher

No I disagree that Trumps main concern that he plays well to his adoring fans, as I've explained he has a massive ego and wants to be the 'big man', that is my opinion, Trent has another opinion, which is fine.
He also suggetsed and I quote:-
 he (Pence) doesn't have Trumps need for constant approval from adoring admirers which, whilst annoying, actually distracts him from his proper job of being president.

So not straw, again. 

To accuse me of strawmen is to accuse me of effectively lying, please stop making unfounded accusations.

The straw was in suggesting that people didn't think the system would hinder Pence - no one has said that - so I take it you retract your comment?

His ego might well get in the way of him achieving things however what has stopped Trump is the US system. Fine take your point that Pence as a seasoned pro might prove to be more effective although this is debatble as he likely to feel more accountable to the Republican Party, Trump seems to ignore them and Pence would still have to fight the US system, a system he is part of.

Trump ignoring them is exactly why he struggles to get a lot through see health care reforms. That pence wouldn't alienate them increases his chances of getting things done.

Maher is more expert than me, I don't need to justify that to you.

Honestly 'hey did you know that Maher a seasoned commentator from the left of US politics has a view on this matter and its this'. It is just an observation don't find it adds much value to the discussion then don't read it and go on with your day, no need to get your knickers in a twist.

No twisted knickers, I just don't see that citing an opinion adds anything to the argument. Why is Maher being from the left of US politics of any significance here?

[Rhiannon]

I have been thinking about Pence wondering how he, as a supposedly committed Christian, could possibly serve as Trump's VP? Trump has a reputation for touching up women, and his business dealings are not ethical, by all accounts. Political ambition obviously overrides Pence's religious scruples.

It doesn't look as if Trump's state visit will happen any time soon.

Pence is in a position of influence. Trump knows enough to realise he needs the religious right on board. Pence knows this too. He can get through his agenda that appeals to religion conservatives who like a lot of what Trump says even if they don't approve of who he is.

[Rhiannon]

It just goes to show how sick and morally corrupt some of them are!

In his mind what he is doing is moral - getting 'God's will' enacted into US law.

[jakswan]

Which is exactly that just an opinion with no argument. And Agin that there are some people who like Maher doesn't give any validation to that opinion

Its not even that, you ask me would Pence be worse than Trump?

me: I don't know
many forum members: oh he would for these reasons
me: well I'm not sure I know Maher in the US has this view, so I'm going to stay on the fence.

I have no idea what point you think you are making here with would/could. As pointed out no one has claimed to KNOW that Pence would be worse but I think he would be because of the reasons put forward by trentvoyager  amongst others things. Note trentvoyager explained those reasons which is exactly not what you have done in citing Maher

You accused me of straw, again asking for clarification on what you meant is not straw. Unfounded accusation.

The straw was in suggesting that people didn't think the system would hinder Pence - no one has said that - so I take it you retract your comment?

Three accusations two unfounded as I recall, the last one you address. Where did I suggest that someone thinks the system would not hinder Pence? I happily fix the comment and apologise.

No twisted knickers, I just don't see that citing an opinion adds anything to the argument. Why is Maher being from the left of US politics of any significance here?

Explained that a few times now, we disagree, so what?

[Nearly Sane]

The end justifying the means!

Trump is God's tool

[Aruntraveller]

Trump is God's tool

Well a tool certainly

[Robbie]

Well a tool certainly

Seconded.

[jakswan]

I do.

However if you are assuming I think of all those on the right as being the same, you are mistaken in your assumption.

Therefore your implied accusation of hypocrisy has no basis.

Oh ok,

If you think  I think of all those on the left as being the same, you are mistaken in your assumption.

[Aruntraveller]

Oh ok,

If you think  I think of all those on the left as being the same, you are mistaken in your assumption.

Except it was you who used the phrase "You on the left..." which indicated that you regarded all on the left as one. But thanks for the clarification.