Former President Trump

[Robbie]

He could be impeached because of giving Russians classified information.

[Harrowby Hall]

No, it isn't. It has its own wrinkles but is not like FPTP

One person, one vote.

Individuals vote for State representatives who pledge their support for one candidate in the Electoral College. Simple majority determines that all that State's representatives will support just one candidate - First Past The Post.

Electoral College - Simple majority - First Past the Post.

[ekim]

He could be impeached because of giving Russians classified information.

Putin is enjoying it too much, so I don't think so. ..... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-39957800/putin-laughs-at-political-chaos-in-the-us

[floo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39957358

Hopefully the latest enquiry will have Trump banged to rights. We should be very concerned about the way Trump is behaving as it could impinge on our national security.

[Nearly Sane]

One person, one vote.

Individuals vote for State representatives who pledge their support for one candidate in the Electoral College. Simple majority determines that all that State's representatives will support just one candidate - First Past The Post.

Electoral College - Simple majority - First Past the Post.

And again that isn't FPTP. If it was a case of FPTP, Clinton would be President.

[Udayana]

hmm ... FPTP isn't FPTP itself then as it is perfectly possible to get a UK government in on a minority popular vote.

[Nearly Sane]

hmm ... FPTP isn't FPTP itself then as it is perfectly possible to get a UK government in on a minority popular vote.

except you don't vote for a govt. FPTP is descriptive not presciptive.

[jeremyp]

Trump is now complaining that no politician in history has been treated as badly as him!!! YE GODS that man is totally crazy!!!!!

I read that earlier today. It was a caption on a picture of a young Nelson Mandela looking out of a prison window. Pedantically, Mandela wasn't a politician at the time he was in prison, but the point was well made.

[jeremyp]

The American system is also FPTP - but with a post-election manipulation which makes some votes more powerful than others.

It is first past the post effectively.

[jeremyp]

And again that isn't FPTP. If it was a case of FPTP, Clinton would be President.

Here's how it works:

Each state has a number of delegates to the electoral college. All of the delegates normally vote according to which presidential candidate won inn their state.

How is that not like FPTP?

[Nearly Sane]

Here's how it works:

Each state has a number of delegates to the electoral college. All of the delegates normally vote according to which presidential candidate won inn their state.

How is that not like FPTP?

Because FPTP describes the election of ondividuals in a vote. Nothing about electoral colleges. Had the US Presisdential Election been FPTP, Clinton would win on number of votes.

[Harrowby Hall]

Because FPTP describes the election of ondividuals in a vote. Nothing about electoral colleges. Had the US Presisdential Election been FPTP, Clinton would win on number of votes.

No.

First Past the Post describes any system in which only a simple tally of votes determines the outcome. Its alternative is Proportional Representation.

Just as PR can take many forms, so can FPTP.

In the case of the US Presidential system delegates from each state to the Electoral College are elected on (1) FPTP and (2) All or Nothing.

The tally of delegates in the Electoral College determination is FPTP.

Your logical error (you like those) is to assume that US presidents are directly elected. They are not.

[Nearly Sane]

No.

First Past the Post describes any system in which only a simple tally of votes determines the outcome. Its alternative is Proportional Representation.

Just as PR can take many forms, so can FPTP.

In the case of the US Presidential system delegates from each state to the Electoral College are elected on (1) FPTP and (2) All or Nothing.

The tally of delegates in the Electoral College determination is FPTP.

Your logical error (you like those) is to assume that US presidents are directly elected. They are not.

No, I'm arguing rather that because it isn't a direct vote it doesn't amount to FPTP. Further while the convention is that electors will follow the popular vote  they don't have to.

[Harrowby Hall]

The fact that it isn't a direct vote is immaterial. FPTP determination is by arithmetic not philosophy.

[Nearly Sane]

The fact that it isn't a direct vote is immaterial. FPTP determination is by arithmetic not philosophy.

in order to cope for non direct electiins , it has to be a philosophy else it would've simple arithmetic. And Clinton would have won. The very reason for the electoral college is to effect and non equalised value for votes.

[ProfessorDavey]

Individuals vote for State representatives who pledge their support for one candidate in the Electoral College. Simple majority determines that all that State's representatives will support just one candidate - First Past The Post.

Not true - although in most states a majority vote in the election triggers a convention that all its college members vote for that candidate, it isn't the case for all states, Nebraska and Maine being examples. Also there is, in many cases, no 'requirement' for the electoral college, hence the notion of 'faithless electors' college members who vote counter to the majority vote in their state.

Electoral College - Simple majority - First Past the Post.

True, but that doesn't mean that the overall presidential election is first past the post, quite the reverse.

[Harrowby Hall]

True, but that doesn't mean that the overall presidential election is first past the post, quite the reverse.

Since the whole process is just to identify a single person - what else can it be?

[Nearly Sane]

Since the whole process is just to identify a single person - what else can it be?

That implies that STV for a single position is FPTP. I presume you didn't mean that?

[ProfessorDavey]

Since the whole process is just to identify a single person - what else can it be?

As I have said, the final electoral college is first past the post. The process for determining (guiding) how those electoral college votes are cast most definitely is not first past the post.

Actually I think the term is often misused. The French presidential election is clearly FPTP - the post being 50% of all votes cast.

But I don't see how our own electoral system is actually first past the post, as there is no defined post - an MP doesn't need any particular % of the votes (i.e. the post) to be elected, merely to poll more than any other candidate, meaning that many MPs get elected with a pretty small proportion of the vote, and there will be losing candidates in other constituencies that poll more but lose.

[Udayana]

Yeah, not only is there no post, but everyone finishes at the same time!

Well .. this has descended to debating the meaning of a silly idiom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting

[Harrowby Hall]

But there is a post. It is 10.00pm on election day.

[ProfessorDavey]

But there is a post. It is 10.00pm on election day.

A time isn't a post.

There is no set number of votes or proportion of votes that ensures a winner. Unlike true FPTP which usually involves the first to 50% of votes cast.

[Nearly Sane]

A time isn't a post.

There is no set number of votes or proportion of votes that ensures a winner. Unlike true FPTP which usually involves the first to 50% of votes cast.

only the true FPTPoster denies that they have less the 50% of votes cast. Are you now arguing that the UK parliamentary elections ate not FPTP given the above isn't required?

Electoral policy when even geeks go to die of boredom!

[ProfessorDavey]

But there is a post. It is 10.00pm on election day.

How can you be first to a time - I think all candidates get to 10pm on election day at exactly the same time ... i.e. 10pm!!

[ProfessorDavey]

only the true FPTPoster denies that they have less the 50% of votes cast. Are you now arguing that the UK parliamentary elections ate not FPTP given the above isn't required?

Electoral policy when even geeks go to die of boredom!

I think convention suggests we describe our election system as FPTP (e.g. rather than proportional representation etc), but thinking about this further it seems rather perverse, as there is no set post to be first past.