Author Topic: President Elect Trump  (Read 211682 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #625 on: May 19, 2017, 03:32:39 PM »
I think convention suggests we describe our election system as FPTP (e.g. rather than proportional representation etc), but thinking about this further it seems rather perverse, as there is no set post to be first past.
The most votes in a single preference election. That's the post, that is all that's important. Happy if against convention you want to call it wanky cheese biscuits.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #626 on: May 19, 2017, 03:46:33 PM »
The most votes in a single preference election. That's the post, that is all that's important. Happy if against convention you want to call it wanky cheese biscuits.
But that isn't a post, as you don't know where it is until after the election. I recognise FPTP is the conventional term used, but it actually makes no sense when you think about it.

We do have genuine FPTP election, both in the UK and elsewhere, where there is a clear post set at 50% - first past this wins. And then you need mechanisms to deal with situations where no-one reaches the post.

In the French presidential election is no-one reaches the post in the first round the top 2 'run off' against each other in a second round, guaranteeing that one of the two will reach the 50% post.

In the London mayoral election there is a variant approach which doesn't require a second round. In that election if no-one reaches 50% all but the top two are eliminated and second choices are reallocated until one candidate reaches the 50% post.

But this isn't what happens in UK constituency elections, where there is no post - it is actually more correctly a plurality-winner system.

You can snide scoff all you like, all I'm doing is discussing things - and in this case thinking about something which I'd always unthinkingly accepted as a term, but with a little more thought is strange. And indeed I suspect you aren't quite clear about it too, nor is HH, in that you can't agree on what the 'post' is - you think it is most votes, he thinks it is 10pm.

Nearly Sane

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #627 on: May 19, 2017, 03:52:06 PM »
But that isn't a post, as you don't know where it is until after the election. I recognise FPTP is the conventional term used, but it actually makes no sense when you think about it.

We do have genuine FPTP election, both in the UK and elsewhere, where there is a clear post set at 50% - first past this wins. And then you need mechanisms to deal with situations where no-one reaches the post.

In the French presidential election is no-one reaches the post in the first round the top 2 'run off' against each other in a second round, guaranteeing that one of the two will reach the 50% post.

In the London mayoral election there is a variant approach which doesn't require a second round. In that election if no-one reaches 50% all but the top two are eliminated and second choices are reallocated until one candidate reaches the 50% post.

But this isn't what happens in UK constituency elections, where there is no post - it is actually more correctly a plurality-winner system.

You can snide scoff all you like, all I'm doing is discussing things - and in this case thinking about something which I'd always unthinkingly accepted as a term, but with a little more thought is strange. And indeed I suspect you aren't quite clear about it too, nor is HH, in that you can't agree on what the 'post' is - you think it is most votes, he thinks it is 10pm.
Why would me disagreeing about what constitutes wanky cheese biscuits with HH mean I wasn't clear. After all if you and Sassy were to disagree about what mouldy ginger nuts meant, would that mean you were confused about it?

Harrowby Hall

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #628 on: May 19, 2017, 03:53:30 PM »
How can you be first to a time - I think all candidates get to 10pm on election day at exactly the same time ... i.e. 10pm!!

You are the one who has the pot which is most full. (You have to think laterally. There are more ways of reaching a specific point that just moving.)
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #629 on: May 19, 2017, 03:58:45 PM »
Why would me disagreeing about what constitutes wanky cheese biscuits with HH mean I wasn't clear. After all if you and Sassy were to disagree about what mouldy ginger nuts meant, would that mean you were confused about it?
Surely the key point about FPTP is that there is a post - yet you and HH seem not to be clear on what that post is.

Point is that although it is accepted convention to describe out system as FPTP it actually makes no sense.

Our election system is more like the LeMans 24 hour, in which the winner is the car that is ahead at the end of the 24 hour (and there is no actual winning post, merely a set time at which the race ends), rather than a genuine FTPT race such as a 100m sprint, where the winner is ... well the first person past the winning post, in this case 100m from the start.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #630 on: May 19, 2017, 04:00:05 PM »
You are the one who has the pot which is most full. (You have to think laterally. There are more ways of reaching a specific point that just moving.)
I am thinking laterally which is why the anomaly of us describing our system as FPTP struck me.

Nearly Sane

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #631 on: May 19, 2017, 04:00:56 PM »
Surely the key point about FPTP is that there is a post - yet you and HH seem not to be clear on what that post is.

Point is that although it is accepted convention to describe out system as FPTP it actually makes no sense.

Our election system is more like the LeMans 24 hour, in which the winner is the car that is ahead at the end of the 24 hour (and there is no actual winning post, merely a set time at which the race ends), rather than a genuine FTPT race such as a 100m sprint, where the winner is ... well the first person past the winning post, in this case 100m from the start.

You say potato, I say wanky cheese biscuits, HH says hakuna matata...

Harrowby Hall

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #632 on: May 19, 2017, 04:03:40 PM »
Udayana is right. This becoming pointless.

However, if you will permit a final word, I have been looking at the 12th Amendment of the American Constitution. The following is my understanding:

Constitutionally, the president of the USA is elected by the Electoral College. The national vote has no constitutional value. Holding it would be simply a case of custom and practice. Like the Brexit referendum it is advisory only and, strangely, it appears to be binding.

Since the national vote has no constitutional value it is immaterial whether it is FPTP or not. However, as Prof Davey concurs, the Electoral College vote is FPTP.

I will say no more.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #633 on: May 19, 2017, 04:05:18 PM »
Why would me disagreeing about what constitutes wanky cheese biscuits with HH mean I wasn't clear. After all if you and Sassy were to disagree about what mouldy ginger nuts meant, would that mean you were confused about it?
So would you describe the following as FPTP:

Olympics 100m final
The Derby
The Monaco Grand Prix

Probably yes, as there is a post and the winner is the first past it.

Would you describe the following as FPTP

Olympic high jump
LeMan 24 hour
Premier league golden boot

Hmm - probably not as there is no post to be first past - you win by having jumped the highest, travelled the furthest or scored the most goals in a set time or number of games/attempts.

Nearly Sane

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #634 on: May 19, 2017, 04:08:33 PM »
So would you describe the following as FPTP:

Olympics 100m final
The Derby
The Monaco Grand Prix

Probably yes, as there is a post and the winner is the first past it.

Would you describe the following as FPTP

Olympic high jump
LeMan 24 hour
Premier league golden boot

Hmm - probably not as there is no post to be first past - you win by having jumped the highest, travelled the furthest or scored the most goals in a set time or number of games/attempts.

I describe that as mainly wanky cheese biscuits. I wouldn't use FPTP to describe any of them.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #635 on: May 19, 2017, 04:15:42 PM »
I describe that as mainly wanky cheese biscuits. I wouldn't use FPTP to describe any of them.
So you don't believe that Usain Bolt won the Olympics 100m because he was the first to pass the winning post 100m from the start line - how very odd.

Nearly Sane

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #636 on: May 19, 2017, 04:33:15 PM »
So you don't believe that Usain Bolt won the Olympics 100m because he was the first to pass the winning post 100m from the start line - how very odd.
I think if I said to  Usain Bolt, congratulations on your FPTP triumph, he would think I was talking manky cheese biscuits.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #637 on: May 19, 2017, 04:36:11 PM »
I think if I said to  Usain Bolt, congratulations on your FPTP triumph, he would think I was talking manky cheese biscuits.
I think he would be rather more favourable to you congratulating him on being first past the 100m winning post, than congratulating him on his wanky cheese biscuits, which seems to be your view.


Nearly Sane

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #638 on: May 19, 2017, 04:39:14 PM »
I think he would be rather more favourable to you congratulating him on being first past the 100m winning post, than congratulating him on his wanky cheese biscuits, which seems to be your view.
Were you very young when your parents had your sense of humour circumcised?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #639 on: May 19, 2017, 05:07:02 PM »
Were you very young when your parents had your sense of humour circumcised?
Hmm - that's rich from someone who seems to think that:

'You say potato, I say wanky cheese biscuits, HH says hakuna matata...'

Somehow passes as humour.

Nearly Sane

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #640 on: May 19, 2017, 05:11:37 PM »
Hmm - that's rich from someone who seems to think that:

'You say potato, I say wanky cheese biscuits, HH says hakuna matata...'

Somehow passes as humour.

Maybe they just lost it, have you looked down the back of the sofa? To be fair it might be with some wanky cheese biscuits but it might be ok....

ProfessorDavey

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #641 on: May 19, 2017, 05:18:28 PM »
Maybe they just lost it, have you looked down the back of the sofa? To be fair it might be with some wanky cheese biscuits but it might be ok....
By the way, what is a wanky cheese biscuit, when it's at home. I wouldn't know as I don't have the humour of a sniggering 13 year old grammar school boy.

Nearly Sane

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #642 on: May 19, 2017, 05:42:05 PM »
By the way, what is a wanky cheese biscuit, when it's at home. I wouldn't know as I don't have the humour of a sniggering 13 year old grammar school boy.
or indeed that of a wanky cheese biscuit. I think you need to have a wee hakuna matata time.

jeremyp

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #643 on: May 19, 2017, 05:53:04 PM »
Because FPTP describes the election of ondividuals in a vote. Nothing about electoral colleges.
No you don't seem to get it.

In FPTP everybody votes for a representative for an area and the representative helps determine who will be prime minister. If you like, the House of Commons is de facto an electoral College for our prime minister.

 
Quote
Had the US Presisdential Election been FPTP, Clinton would win on number of votes.
That's complete bollocks. You have to know how the constituencies would be divided up in order to predict the result of a FPTP election.
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jeremyp

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #644 on: May 19, 2017, 05:55:41 PM »
As I have said, the final electoral college is first past the post. The process for determining (guiding) how those electoral college votes are cast most definitely is not first past the post.

It is in most states.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #645 on: May 19, 2017, 05:59:04 PM »
It is in most states.
Not really as FPTP really refers to election of a single member (noting I think the term isn't really correct) but states don't elect a single representative to the electoral college - indeed they don't really directly elect them at all in the general election as except in rare circumstances the names of the potential electoral college members aren't on the ballot paper.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 06:04:57 PM by ProfessorDavey »

jeremyp

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #646 on: May 19, 2017, 06:09:50 PM »
Not really as FPTP really refers to election of a single member (noting I think the term isn't really correct) but states don't elect a single representative to the electoral college - indeed they don't really elect them at all in the general election.
Given that the delegates in most states vote as a single body, based on which presidential candidate the people in their state voted for, I think it's perfectly reasonable to describe it as a form of FPTP.

The effect is the same: the final result doesn't necessarily match the overall vote of the country as a

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SqueakyVoice

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #647 on: May 23, 2017, 01:16:17 PM »
Excuse me, I hope you can help. I was looking for a thread on President Trump, but I seem to have taken a wrong turning somewhere. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?

...meanwhile Ivanka shows the Maybot what to do with the Tiny Handed One's stubby offering...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/05/22/melania-trump-appears-swat-presidents-hand-away/102012848/
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #648 on: May 23, 2017, 07:23:50 PM »

...meanwhile Ivanka shows the Maybot what to do with the Tiny Handed One's stubby offering...


This gets worse ... Ivanka is masquerading as her step-mother.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: President Elect Trump
« Reply #649 on: May 24, 2017, 05:22:20 PM »
This was a tweet from Trump in 2013 when Frankie got elected


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