Former President Trump

[Rhiannon]

I love this stuff, and it even comes with a pointless but pretty picture of Benedict,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45435813

[Nearly Sane]

of course

https://deadline.com/2018/09/armando-iannucci-hollywood-fake-america-great-again-1202458829/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[jeremyp]

S who, then? And why?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/06/trump-op-ed-new-york-times-who-wrote-it-mike-pence-pompeo-deny-authorship

Here's the original piece in the NYT

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html

[Roses]

It smacks of desperation to get rid of Trump, and who can blame them?

[jeremyp]

America needs to amend its constitution so it is much easier to get rid of a president. Trump is a conman of the worst sort, imo.

What mechanism do you suggest? Bear in mind that he is the duly elected president of the United States, so any methods must take into account that he was appointed as the result of a democratic vote.

Note that there are already three ways to get rid of

• impeachment followed by conviction
• resignation
• The 25th amendment

The first requires a crime to have been committed and at present we do not have evidence of that.

The second requires the cooperation of the president.

The last of these deals with situations where the president is unable to perform his duties for any reason and may only are temporary. I don't think it covers incompetence or dishonesty.

So I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a new method that could be used on Donald Trump.

[Rhiannon]

Trump is almost certainly personality disordered. Does that make him unfit? Cameron said the same thing of Obama, and it may be true.

[jeremyp]

Trump is almost certainly personality disordered. Does that make him unfit? Cameron said the same thing of Obama, and it may be true.

There's no way to get rid of a president that is unfit for office unless he does something as a result of his unfitness that renders him liable for impeachment.

[Rhiannon]

There's no way to get rid of a president that is unfit for office unless he does something as a result of his unfitness that renders him liable for impeachment.

The 25th covers incapacity. It's been used temporarily for presidents undergoing anaesthesia. If Trump was felt to be sufficiently mentally disordered then I think that is covered by the 25th even if he doesn't do anything impeachable, at least in theory.

[jeremyp]

The 25th covers incapacity.

which is not the same as unfit.

It's been used temporarily for presidents undergoing anaesthesia.

It's clearly designed mainly for such situations, although it was brought in after the Kennedy assassination when the theoretical question was posed "what if he hadn't died and had remained in a vegetative state?" There would have been no way to remove him.

President Woodrow Wilson had a stroke in 1919 and was left badly incapacitated and probably unable to perform his duties for the last year of his term. His wife effectively ran the presidency for a while. But they could not invoke the 25th because it didn't exist.

If Trump was felt to be sufficiently mentally disordered then I think that is covered by the 25th even if he doesn't do anything impeachable, at least in theory.

Trump would have to be so mentally disordered that he was unable to perform the duties of his office. I'm not saying that is impossible, but being narcissistic and stupid clearly doesn't qualify according to the people that can invoke the 25th.

[Harrowby Hall]

What mechanism do you suggest? Bear in mind that he is the duly elected president of the United States, so any methods must take into account that he was appointed as the result of a democratic vote.

Indeed, he was duly elected - but not by the people.

Is it possible that, following the investigation which appears to be underway into circumstances surrounding the presidential election campaign, if serious malpractices are proven then the Electoral College could be asked to reconsider its decision?

Perhaps a further investigation could be conducted into the Electoral College itself and the unfair inequalities which exist within the Electoral College and the electoral districts whose consequences distort the popular vote.

[jeremyp]

Indeed, he was duly elected - but not by the people.

The people voted for the electoral college delegates who voted for him. Them's the rules.

Is it possible that, following the investigation which appears to be underway into circumstances surrounding the presidential election campaign, if serious malpractices are proven then the Electoral College could be asked to reconsider its decision?

No. There's no constitutional provision for this.

Perhaps a further investigation could be conducted into the Electoral College itself and the unfair inequalities which exist within the Electoral College and the electoral districts whose consequences distort the popular vote.

That's a complicated question because of the way members of the electoral college are selected. Firstly, each state gets a number of electors based on the number of representatives it has in the house and the senate. Since each state gets two senators regardless of size, small states get a disproportionate number of electors. Most states require all of their electors to vote in the same way as the popular vote for the whole state. Two states allocate electors in proportion to the popular vote.

[Roses]

What mechanism do you suggest? Bear in mind that he is the duly elected president of the United States, so any methods must take into account that he was appointed as the result of a democratic vote.

Note that there are already three ways to get rid of

• impeachment followed by conviction
• resignation
• The 25th amendment

The first requires a crime to have been committed and at present we do not have evidence of that.

The second requires the cooperation of the president.

The last of these deals with situations where the president is unable to perform his duties for any reason and may only are temporary. I don't think it covers incompetence or dishonesty.

So I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a new method that could be used on Donald Trump.

My method wouldn't be illegal, I would ship him off to join his bestie in the Kremlin.

[Rhiannon]

which is not the same as unfit.
It's clearly designed mainly for such situations, although it was brought in after the Kennedy assassination when the theoretical question was posed "what if he hadn't died and had remained in a vegetative state?" There would have been no way to remove him.

President Woodrow Wilson had a stroke in 1919 and was left badly incapacitated and probably unable to perform his duties for the last year of his term. His wife effectively ran the presidency for a while. But they could not invoke the 25th because it didn't exist.
Trump would have to be so mentally disordered that he was unable to perform the duties of his office. I'm not saying that is impossible, but being narcissistic and stupid clearly doesn't qualify according to the people that can invoke the 25th.

I think that depends on what 'unable' means. We aren't simply talking about narcissism, but NPD, or similar. Arguably un rode to do his job properly he'd have to make rational decisions. Someone with NPD doesn't do that. You might as well have someone with dementia in charge.

[Shaker]

You might as well have someone with dementia in charge.

Increasingly I suspect that this may well be the case.

I'm not a professional, or claiming to be; I can't diagnose, or claiming to; all I can do is go on what I know via reading fairly widely and personal experience, and what I know is that people in the earlier stages of certain forms of dementia have an uninhibitedness (is that a word? It is now), a lack of 'filter' as to what is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour in company which seems to be the case with Chump. He looks and acts like someone with no control or filter between brain and mouth.

It's not by any means what the colonists call a slam-dunk case, but it is to my mind suggestive.

[Roses]

I think that depends on what 'unable' means. We aren't simply talking about narcissism, but NPD, or similar. Arguably un rode to do his job properly he'd have to make rational decisions. Someone with NPD doesn't do that. You might as well have someone with dementia in charge.

I agree.

[SusanDoris]

A couple of years ago, my reader read 'America 1927' by Bill Bryson. some of the Presidents he talks about there make Donald Trump seem almost reasonable!

I think that is the right title. Super book, by the way.

[jeremyp]

My method wouldn't be illegal, I would ship him off to join his bestie in the Kremlin.

Sorry, I was actually asking a serious question. I thought you might have a serious answer.

[jeremyp]

I think that depends on what 'unable' means.

Yes. So is he unable or is he just doing it really badly?

We aren't simply talking about narcissism, but NPD, or similar. Arguably un rode to do his job properly he'd have to make rational decisions. Someone with NPD doesn't do that. You might as well have someone with dementia in charge.

I’m not qualified to diagnose President Trump’s mental illnesses if he has any so I’m not going to comment on that.

[Roses]

Sorry, I was actually asking a serious question. I thought you might have a serious answer.

The answer I actually had in mind would see me the naughty stair for a good while.

[Rhiannon]

Yes. So is he unable or is he just doing it really badly?

I’m not qualified to diagnose President Trump’s mental illnesses if he has any so I’m nope going to comment on that.

We're discussing hypotheticals. I haven't diagnosed anything either. Hypothetically, if Trump as a personality disorder, then that will prevent him from making rational decisions. The difficulty would be that it might look as though he was doing his job, just screwing it up, when in reality he would never be mentally capable of doing his job at all.

Hypothetically.

[Roses]

The American Constitution needs amending so they can more easily get rid of a sitting president if it is clear he is not functioning properly. I have heard Ronald Reagan was suffering from  dementia during his last term in the White House, Nancy was making his decisions for him. 

[Rhiannon]

The American Constitution needs amending so they can more easily get rid of a sitting president if it is clear he is not functioning properly. I have heard Ronald Reagan was suffering from  dementia during his last term in the White House, Nancy was making his decisions for him.

He probably did have dementia, but I doubt whether Nancy was making any major decisions. Who knows, but I suspect that a team of White House advisors kept things ticking over until the next election. Removing him would have been destabilising. Arguably the reverse is true when it comes to Trump.

[SteveH]

[Ronald Reagan] probably did have dementia, but I doubt whether Nancy was making any major decisions. Who knows, but I suspect that a team of White House advisors kept things ticking over until the next election. Removing him would have been destabilising. Arguably the reverse is true when it comes to Trump.

Churchill was increasingly senile during the last few years of his second premiership, and government was increasingly conducted by the rest of the cabinet.

[Roses]

Churchill was increasingly senile during the last few years of his second premiership, and government was increasingly conducted by the rest of the cabinet.

Dementia, or not, Churchill was not a very good peacetime PM.

[SteveH]

Dementia, or not, Churchill was not a very good peacetime PM.

Indeed not. He was the man we needed during the war, and is rightly honoured for that, but not one of the better post-war pms.