I'll pray for you

[Rhiannon]

Is it acceptible to pray for those who haven't asked for it?

[Shaker]

This, I think, is one of those things that hangs on which side of the theism-atheism divide you are.

Theists presumably think that prayer 'works' in some manner or other, though what constitutes 'working' - perhaps conveniently - remains a vague and nebulous thing consistent with absolutely all, any and every state of affairs, such that it is unfalsifiable and therefore absolutely and utterly useless as a working hypothesis. What I actually think, but do not say, when I read the prayer thread here would undoubtedly earn me an instantaneous and lifetime ban.

Atheists hold that the only benefit of prayer, if any, is a psychological one akin to the placebo effect in the mind of the individual prayee. One might, if uncharitable, call it a sort of spiritual masturbation - a solitary activity that gives the individual personal pleasure for a few minutes, but no more than that.

When Christopher Hitchens was dying of cancer he graciously took on board the first viewpoint while being resolutely convinced of the latter. That, in the name of good manners, is a tolerable compromise, surely. Where this crumbles is the sort of faux-concerned but actually passive-aggressiveness that you see sometimes.

[Rhiannon]

Not so long ago when I was having a very tough time I know that a pagan friend enlisted the help of all their Christian neighbours to pray for me. I was and am deeply touched; whether it 'worked' or not isn't really relevant - what counted was that I knew that people I'd never met were on my side and I happily admit that I got a nice warm glow from it.

And I know that Christians here appreciate the thoughts of non-theists on the prayer topic. It's a credit to this forum I think.

But if prayer did work, then are those who pray for someone *unasked* interfering in someone else's wellbeing? In witchcraft few would carry out a healing spell without being asked to, on the basis that it isn't their place to judge what is in someone else-s best interests - a period of illness may be necessary as a catalyst for making life changes, for example.

And isn't praying for non-believers to convert just rude?

[Brownie]

Well I wouldn't pray for anyone's conversion but imagine those who do, do it without the person knowing about it.

Yes, it is nice to know people care but praying for someone else should be done 'quietly' unless they say they want it.

[Shaker]

Not so long ago when I was having a very tough time I know that a pagan friend enlisted the help of all their Christian neighbours to pray for me. I was and am deeply touched; whether it 'worked' or not isn't really relevant - what counted was that I knew that people I'd never met were on my side and I happily admit that I got a nice warm glow from it.

And I know that Christians here appreciate the thoughts of non-theists on the prayer topic. It's a credit to this forum I think.

It is; but thoughts, even good ones, qua thoughts, do damn all above and beyond the "nice warm glow" factor if not translated into action. In most cases most people, faced with these sorts of situations, can't actually and practically do anything directly useful, so the 'thoughts and prayers' (or at least thoughts) thing comes out. I think almost all prayer is of this kind. There's nothing I can usefully do in any practical sense - companionship; cooking a hot and tasty meal; paperwork, etc. - so I'll consider benevolent thoughts from several hundred/thousand miles away an acceptable substitute.

It's at least possible that the knowledge that others are thinking benevolent thoughts of you may help insofar as they provide the NWG factor. But we still seem to be in the realm of the placebo here, as I see it.

isn't praying for non-believers to convert just rude?

Well yes. Of course it is.

[Rhiannon]

Well I wouldn't pray for anyone's conversion but imagine those who do, do it without the person knowing about it.

Yes, it is nice to know people care but praying for someone else should be done 'quietly' unless they say they want it.

I have no problem at all with being asked 'would you like me to pray for you?' None whatsoever.

[floo]

If people want to pray for others to get well it is probably meant kindly. However, when they pray for people to see it their way, that is when it really bugs me!

[Shaker]

After he almost died of a dissected aorta, Daniel Dennett's response - "Thank you. Did you also sacrifice a goat?" - was a bit more barbed than Hitchens's reply, but along the same lines, I think.

[Gordon]

Personally it wouldn't bother me if someone who knew me prayed for me on a personal basis: I can appreciate the good intentions involved and that whoever is doing the praying may gain some kind of placebo benefit that helps them manage their concern for me even though I think their appeals to the divine are utterly pointless.

However, I think it presumptive, and even offensive, when offered up in the public arena as being some kind of substantive response to some tragedy or other. Fortunately in the UK our politicians generally avoid 'God' within the political process so when I see US politicians reference God/prayers it really grates.

[Shaker]

Fortunately in the UK our politicians generally avoid 'God' within the political process so when I see US politicians reference God/prayers it really grates.

UK politicians typically avoid the G-word; but in the wake of some tragedy they still deploy the "thoughts and prayers" mantra.

It's not hugely offensive - it's more an automatic, rather mindless, unthinking thing and, as has been said before, is indicative of good wishes in the face of being unable to do anything practical than anything else.

That said: http://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aB18e4N_700b_v2.jpg

[Walt Zingmatilder]

After he almost died of a dissected aorta, Daniel Dennett's response - "Thank you. Did you also sacrifice a goat?" - was a bit more barbed than Hitchens's reply, but along the same lines, I think.

Is that true or is it another bit of atheist wankfodder.......or both?

[Shaker]

Is that true or is it another bit of atheist wankfodder.......or both?

It's true.

Source: https://www.edge.org/conversation/daniel_c_dennett-thank-goodness

These messages from my family and from friends around the world have been literally heart-warming in my case, and I am grateful for the boost in morale (to truly manic heights, I fear!) that it has produced in me. But I am not joking when I say that I have had to forgive my friends who said that they were praying for me. I have resisted the temptation to respond "Thanks, I appreciate it, but did you also sacrifice a goat?" I feel about this the same way I would feel if one of them said "I just paid a voodoo doctor to cast a spell for your health." What a gullible waste of money that could have been spent on more important projects! Don't expect me to be grateful, or even indifferent. I do appreciate the affection and generosity of spirit that motivated you, but wish you had found a more reasonable way of expressing it.

(Paragraph #9).

Why, Vlad?

[Brownie]

I have no problem at all with being asked 'would you like me to pray for you?' None whatsoever.

That's good.

Shaker, I think, mentioned placebo effect.  I've no objection to that at all.

[ippy]

If anyone want's to pray for me, fine, just keep it to yourself.

It's more tiresome when we get the, god bless or I'll pray for you, than reasuring, mind you, if you're into talking to yourself.

ippy

[Shaker]

Harsh, but by no means inaccurate: http://tinyurl.com/hoccnhe

[Rhiannon]

That's good.

Shaker, I think, mentioned placebo effect.  I've no objection to that at all.

For me it's just a kindness. I'm not keen on 'I'll pray for you' though. That goes from asking if I'd like something to presumptuousness.

[Outrider]

If someone wants to pray for me, generally, I'll try to take it in the spirit that it's intended - someone cares for me (directly or indirectly) and is doing what they think will help. I don't think it will, but for exactly the same reasons it won't hurt either, and it's meant as a nice gesture.

At times I might take them to task about what they're praying about, perhaps, but not their motivation or intentions in doing the praying.

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

It's quite a nuanced question I think. Clearly it's acceptable to the people who do it, and insofar as they keep it to themselves that's the end of the matter.

It gets more complicated though when those people also feel the need to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it. Why would they do that? Presumably they don't think their various gods will only do the business if they do this, so it must be because that way they feel more virtuous about it. It's weird - if I can do a favour for someone I don't feel the need to tell them, "I did that favour for you I did" yet it seems to be fairly common among the praying constituency.

On the other hand, if someone tells me that they're praying for me, while I'll think, "fine, but you might as well bang a few coconut shells together for all the good it'll do" for the most part I'll assume they're well-intentioned at least, so will respond accordingly.

Here's where it gets pernicious though. About ten years ago tragically a relatively young friend of ours died of cancer. My wife was diagnosed with the same cancer shortly afterwards (in fact it was partly because of his death that she insisted on the tests that found it) but she was treated earlier and was given the all clear. She had a McMiIllan coffee morning shortly afterwards, when three people there said to me that they'd prayed for her recovery. They clearly expected me to thank them for the effect the praying had had, but they also hinted that our mutual friend who'd died must have done something wrong for their prayers not to have worked in his case.

I decided to walk away rather than tell them what I thought about that.       

[Shaker]

I decided to walk away rather than tell them what I thought about that.       

A great deal of tongue-biting goes on in my case too 

[floo]

It's quite a nuanced question I think. Clearly it's acceptable to the people who do it, and insofar as they keep it to themselves that's the end of the matter.

It gets more complicated though when those people also feel the need to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it. Why would they do that? Presumably they don't think their various gods will only do the business if they do this, so it must be because that way they feel more virtuous about it. It's weird - if I can do a favour for someone I don't feel the need to tell them, "I did that favour for you I did" yet it seems to be fairly common among the praying constituency.

On the other hand, if someone tells me that they're praying for me, while I'll think, "fine, but you might as well bang a few coconut shells together for all the good it'll do" for the most part I'll assume they're well-intentioned at least, so will respond accordingly.

Here's where it gets pernicious though. About ten years ago tragically a relatively young friend of ours died of cancer. My wife was diagnosed with the same cancer shortly afterwards (in fact it was partly because of his death that she insisted on the tests that found it) but she was treated earlier and was given the all clear. She had a McMiIllan coffee morning shortly afterwards, when three people there said to me that they'd prayed for her recovery. They clearly expected me to thank them for the effect the praying had had, but they also hinted that our mutual friend who'd died must have done something wrong for their prayers not to have worked in his case.

I decided to walk away rather than tell them what I thought about that.       

I would have let them have it with all guns blazing!

[Rhiannon]

It's quite a nuanced question I think. Clearly it's acceptable to the people who do it, and insofar as they keep it to themselves that's the end of the matter.

It gets more complicated though when those people also feel the need to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it. Why would they do that? Presumably they don't think their various gods will only do the business if they do this, so it must be because that way they feel more virtuous about it. It's weird - if I can do a favour for someone I don't feel the need to tell them, "I did that favour for you I did" yet it seems to be fairly common among the praying constituency.

On the other hand, if someone tells me that they're praying for me, while I'll think, "fine, but you might as well bang a few coconut shells together for all the good it'll do" for the most part I'll assume they're well-intentioned at least, so will respond accordingly.

Here's where it gets pernicious though. About ten years ago tragically a relatively young friend of ours died of cancer. My wife was diagnosed with the same cancer shortly afterwards (in fact it was partly because of his death that she insisted on the tests that found it) but she was treated earlier and was given the all clear. She had a McMiIllan coffee morning shortly afterwards, when three people there said to me that they'd prayed for her recovery. They clearly expected me to thank them for the effect the praying had had, but they also hinted that our mutual friend who'd died must have done something wrong for their prayers not to have worked in his case.

I decided to walk away rather than tell them what I thought about that.       

Yes, this is one of the issues that I have. There is definitely an ego stroke involved for some and this is when it stops being purely a nice, kindly-meant gesture - these people thought that they had a hand in your wife's recovery and, by implication, that she wouldn't have recovered had they not asked their god to intervene. It's very difficult to think of anything more arrogant.

I once came across a woman who had MS and who joined a church that organised a healing service especially for her. They could just about accept that she didn't get out of her wheelchair and cartwheel down the aisle at the service itself, but then when she hadn't been 'cured' after a few days she was told that it was because of unrepented sin on her part and that she was no longer welcome in their church.

Generally I think I try to be respectful of the beliefs of others, so long as they don't hurt others, but I wouldn't have walked away in your situation, Blue - well done for doing so. And I am so glad that your wife is ok now.

[ippy]

Christian aid and the Sally Army are two charities I have got time for inspite of their god doctor side; I gave some money to a Sally Army collector recently and I mentioned the respect I have for them with regard to their works with looking for missing people etc, and I did mention my non-religious Humanist leanings then as I walked on I got well god 'bless you anyway', even though I had pointed out my respect for his organisation, he didn't respect my Humanist outlook, so as far as I'm concerned his 'well god bless you anyway', he might as well said to me well bollocks to your Humanism anyway, some people just don't get it, I don't think the majority of them ever will.

ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

Thank you Rhi. Might be interesting if anyone here who thinks praying works could tell us why it's important to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it.

Good to have you back by the way x

[ekim]

"Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret "
"God already knows your needs before you ask."
JC

[floo]

Christian aid and the Sally Army are two charities I have got time for inspite of their god doctor side; I gave some money to a Sally Army collector recently and I mentioned the respect I have for them with regard to their works with looking for missing people etc, and I did mention my non-religious Humanist leanings then as I walked on I got well god 'bless you anyway', even though I had pointed out my respect for his organisation, he didn't respect my Humanist outlook, so as far as I'm concerned his 'well god bless you anyway', he might as well said to me well bollocks to your Humanism anyway, some people just don't get it, I don't think the majority of them ever will.

ippy

I agree both do a good job and we give them donations.