Author Topic: I'll pray for you  (Read 7319 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2017, 01:55:01 PM »
"Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret "
"God already knows your needs before you ask."
JC

He said all sorts of stuff about not judging and forgiveness and things. Just the kind of wishy washy liberal the church can do without.

Shaker

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2017, 01:57:49 PM »
"God already knows your needs before you ask."
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ekim

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2017, 02:43:09 PM »
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Yes.  The first quote was in response to Blue's question "why it's important to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it."  and the second invites the question .. why pray (ask) anyway?

Brownie

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2017, 03:23:18 PM »
"Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret "
"God already knows your needs before you ask."
JC

I agree with the above.  We certainly don't have to tell anyone we are praying for them though we can if they are likely to be pleased by it.

The second quotation is extremely apt when we are trying to pray for something for ourselves but can't find the right words.  That often happens to me, I find it easier to pray for others or another but when it comes to me my mind becomes chaotic.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2017, 03:39:54 PM »
ekim,

Quote
Yes.  The first quote was in response to Blue's question "why it's important to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it."  and the second invites the question .. why pray (ask) anyway?

The first answer ("Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret") though suggests not only that the supplicant shouldn't tell the prayee, but maybe that he'd be breaking the rule if he did and so would risk making the prayer not work?

Thanks for the answer: next time someone says, "I prayed for you" I'll reply - "Oh great - so you don't want the prayer to work then you heartless swine"  ;)

The second ("God already knows your needs before you ask") still leaves open the question of why bother with the asking at all. Is this god really so petulant and insecure that he has to be asked to do the right thing? Wow!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 03:49:32 PM by bluehillside »
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ippy

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2017, 03:55:38 PM »
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A  square on the head of the nail coment Shakes, without opening your link.

ippy

ippy

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2017, 04:25:41 PM »
"Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret "
"God already knows your needs before you ask."
JC

Could you tell all of us here on this forum about how you acquired this info, only you have expressed that you know these things in such a positive maner, almost as though you've managed to get it first hand from your god, whatever.

I look forward to your answer ekim.

ippy


Brownie

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2017, 04:36:53 PM »


Matthew 6:5-8 New International Version (NIV)

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

To me, that is common sense.  Even for non-Christians, it is always better not to be ostentatious.


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ippy

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2017, 05:37:19 PM »

Matthew 6:5-8 New International Version (NIV)

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

To me, that is common sense.  Even for non-Christians, it is always better not to be ostentatious.

Brownie, how have you come to the conclusion private prayer does any more or any less than shouting them from the roof tops comes under the heading of 'common sense' and why?

 Come to think of it, why would I pray in public or private?

I'm unable to see any usefull purpose served by praying other than for some kind of reason it makes the one doing the praying, whether in private or not, feeling that they have satisfied some kind of need they have? It's puzzling to me?

Ippy
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 05:48:12 PM by ippy »

ekim

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2017, 05:42:41 PM »
Could you tell all of us here on this forum about how you acquired this info, only you have expressed that you know these things in such a positive maner, almost as though you've managed to get it first hand from your god, whatever.

I look forward to your answer ekim.

ippy
Yes, see the full quote in Brownie's reply.  I just paraphrased the essence of it.

ippy

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2017, 05:53:13 PM »
Yes, see the full quote in Brownie's reply.  I just paraphrased the essence of it.

I see you've just paraphrased it, I assume you're not declaring that you know this to be a fact, or are we just playing around with words?

ippy

SusanDoris

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2017, 06:02:26 PM »
Anyone who knows me would not say that they had prayed for me! If an acquaintance said they had prayed for me or family, I would say, politely but firmly,  something like, 'I appreciate the thought but there is no god to pray to or who can have any influence.'   Since I am quite good at being politely assertive with a friendly approach, I very much doubt if I would be challenged!! :)


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Brownie

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2017, 11:39:53 PM »
I will not come to you saying that I'm going to pray for you, SusanDoris, promise  :D.

Ippy, I was only explaining what Christians believe and accept that a non-believer would think it worthless regardless of whether public or private. 

To me it makes sense but I also think that anything we do for others is best done without ostentation.  Nothing worse than people doing stuff for charity, for example, and publicising themselves ("Look how good I am").   Exceptions being when they are trying to drum up support for a good cause.
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SusanDoris

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2017, 06:12:08 AM »
I will not come to you saying that I'm going to pray for you, SusanDoris, promise  :D.
:)
Quote
Ippy, I was only explaining what Christians believe and accept that a non-believer would think it worthless regardless of whether public or private. 

To me it makes sense but I also think that anything we do for others is best done without ostentation.  Nothing worse than people doing stuff for charity, for example, and publicising themselves ("Look how good I am").   Exceptions being when they are trying to drum up support for a good cause.
If praying for someone makes sense to  you, can you say what procedure you think follows a prayer? If a person prays to God (the one with a capital G!), then that is a thought in his/her head. What do you think happens next?
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ekim

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2017, 08:26:59 AM »
I see you've just paraphrased it, I assume you're not declaring that you know this to be a fact, or are we just playing around with words?

ippy
..... Know what to be a fact?

floo

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2017, 11:51:00 AM »
People pray because it makes them feel better, imo. What I don't get is those who still praise god when their prayers don't get a positive response. A case in point are the people who have had many prayers offered for their healing, yet their prayers go unanswered. When challenged some Christians will say that god sometimes says no for the best of reasons. I am thinking of a particular case, which has being going on for about 18 months. Prayers have been offered on their behalf yet their condition has worsened in such a way it must be very hard for the person concerned as it appears they are suffering emotionally and physically. It must be terrible for the family having to witness it. What sort of god would not do anything to help if it could?

ippy

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2017, 05:22:03 PM »
..... Know what to be a fact?

I've just seen this post of yours ekim, my question in that previous post would be obvious to most but it seems to have been bypassed by you for some reason, I don't always see eye to eye with your posts but to date they haven't conveyed to me that you're in any way as thick as two short planks, is it some sort of game? Like you'll not understand my posts however I present them to you or is it you can't find a rational answer to that rather obvious and easily understood origional question?

ippy

Shaker

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2017, 07:03:22 PM »
People pray because it makes them feel better, imo. What I don't get is those who still praise god when their prayers don't get a positive response. A case in point are the people who have had many prayers offered for their healing, yet their prayers go unanswered. When challenged some Christians will say that god sometimes says no for the best of reasons. I am thinking of a particular case, which has being going on for about 18 months. Prayers have been offered on their behalf yet their condition has worsened in such a way it must be very hard for the person concerned as it appears they are suffering emotionally and physically. It must be terrible for the family having to witness it. What sort of god would not do anything to help if it could?

I suspect that at some point most people will have seen a quotation widely attributed to - but almost certainly never actually said by - Albert Einstein: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the same result." (In some versions it reads: "... a different result"). This is one of those internet meme thingies which has been attributed to everybody and anybody. (Mark Twain is another perennial favourite). In actuality, nobody has ever been able to trace this quote to anywhere in Einstein's writings. On balance, he most likely never said it.

Nevertheless, somebody, somewhere, at some point in time did say it, so let's take it on its face. It sounds pretty much like the hallmark of petitionary prayer to me - expecting that the Creator of All That Is can have its presumably perfect plan swayed by human beings speaking internally to it in their own heads with their eyes closed. The most casual and cursory glance at the Prayer Thread here ought to give anyone pause as to exactly how well that little exercise works out; it ought to, but doesn't, because the belief in a prayer-answering god has its own inbuilt unfalsifiability where absolutely any and every state of affairs no matter how horrendous is interpreted as bolstering the belief, not falsifying it. Prayer offered; desired outcome = thank you Lord! Undesired outcome = ah well, God knows best, his ways are not our ways - thank you Lord! This abysmal travesty of reasoning is made to be compatible with quite literally everything that happens (which in a tremendous number of cases is of course the result of sheer random chance, not the cunningly-concealed arbitrary whims of a capricious agent). In normal, that is to say rational cases people would, after several endeavours of this kind, regard the experiment as a failure and the hypothesis falsified ... but we're not talking about normal and rational cases.

I could specify some concrete examples of this woeful phenomenon at work, but I shall forbear, save to say that one has to wonder just how many times an undesired result has to show itself before more or less normally-constituted people start to wonder if their activity is having any distinct effect of any kind whatever.

It strikes me as a little like a domestically violent/abusive relationship - it'll be different next time ... it'll be different next time ... it says something about the psychology of some humans that in the teeth of all evidence they would sooner insist on believing in the whims of a capricious, random and arbitrary agent indistinguishable from capricious, random and arbitrary events rather than cutting out the middle god and going straight to random chance. It says something, and nothing complimentary.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 11:42:42 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Bubbles

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2017, 02:55:48 AM »
Christian aid and the Sally Army are two charities I have got time for inspite of their god doctor side; I gave some money to a Sally Army collector recently and I mentioned the respect I have for them with regard to their works with looking for missing people etc, and I did mention my non-religious Humanist leanings then as I walked on I got well god 'bless you anyway', even though I had pointed out my respect for his organisation, he didn't respect my Humanist outlook, so as far as I'm concerned his 'well god bless you anyway', he might as well said to me well bollocks to your Humanism anyway, some people just don't get it, I don't think the majority of them ever will.

ippy

I think you are wrong, I think there are many Christians who do appreciate people who are non religious humanists.

I'm sure there are lots that don't, but I know many personally in real life, who do.


Owlswing

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2017, 06:49:29 AM »

I will always ask 'Do you wish me to ask the deities in which I believe to offer you their assistance in their field of expertise (i e Brighid for healing)?

The dieties in which I believe have enough people who believe in them to look after to bother with those who do not want their help because they deny any deity but their own, who, if they are to be believed have inflicted upon them that for which the removal of is being prayed for.

I have had Christians who have asked me, or my Coven, to ask my/oor deities for help on the basis that they are so deep in the mire that any help from any direction will not be wasted or rejected.

No, neither I nor any member of my Coven, or any other Pagan of any stripe  whom I know, would request aid for anyone who denies all deities. Raising energy in Circle requires serious concentration and mental effort and I, for one, will be buggered if I will make that effort to have it thrown back in my face if the deity to whom the request is addressed decides "He/she doesn't believe in me so "sod 'em" let 'em die!"
 
Oh yes, my deities can be just as big a load of bastards as the Christian one but they do not deny that trait in themselves.
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Bubbles

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2017, 07:22:57 AM »
I will always ask 'Do you wish me to ask the deities in which I believe to offer you their assistance in their field of expertise (i e Brighid for healing)?

The dieties in which I believe have enough people who believe in them to look after to bother with those who do not want their help because they deny any deity but their own, who, if they are to be believed have inflicted upon them that for which the removal of is being prayed for.

I have had Christians who have asked me, or my Coven, to ask my/oor deities for help on the basis that they are so deep in the mire that any help from any direction will not be wasted or rejected.

No, neither I nor any member of my Coven, or any other Pagan of any stripe  whom I know, would request aid for anyone who denies all deities. Raising energy in Circle requires serious concentration and mental effort and I, for one, will be buggered if I will make that effort to have it thrown back in my face if the deity to whom the request is addressed decides "He/she doesn't believe in me so "sod 'em" let 'em die!"
 
Oh yes, my deities can be just as big a load of bastards as the Christian one but they do not deny that trait in themselves.

'Do you wish me to ask the deities in which I believe to offer you their assistance in their field of expertise (i e Brighid for healing)?

It's a bit of a mouthful Owlswing 😜🌹

Owlswing

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2017, 09:47:49 AM »
'Do you wish me to ask the deities in which I believe to offer you their assistance in their field of expertise (i e Brighid for healing)?

It's a bit of a mouthful Owlswing 😜🌹

Better than a mouthful of knuckles for doing it without asking!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

ekim

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2017, 10:02:12 AM »
I've just seen this post of yours ekim, my question in that previous post would be obvious to most but it seems to have been bypassed by you for some reason, I don't always see eye to eye with your posts but to date they haven't conveyed to me that you're in any way as thick as two short planks, is it some sort of game? Like you'll not understand my posts however I present them to you or is it you can't find a rational answer to that rather obvious and easily understood origional question?

ippy
If you look at Msg 29 you will see the context for the reason for my paraphrased quote, which Bluehillside understood.  It is a fact that it relates to an alleged saying of Jesus from Matt 6: 5-8. 
I would therefore assume that "Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret " is a belief held by Christians as is "God already knows your needs before you ask", which one would expect if the God is omniscient.  As regards understanding your posts and as I don't play games on this site, it is better to assume that I am as thick as two planks.  I shan't mind and it saves time.

Bubbles

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2017, 11:42:22 AM »
Better than a mouthful of knuckles for doing it without asking!

True

Sassy

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Re: I'll pray for you
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2017, 12:33:40 PM »
Would someone real repay good with evil?

Sometimes, I think people miss the real care behind the offering of others to pray or keep them in their own way.

Some times are motive are good.
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