To what extent are we truly free

[Nearly Sane]

And not in this case the old free will chestnut

https://theconversation.com/to-what-extent-are-you-truly-free-71188

[Sriram]

We are never free from the consequences of our 'free' actions. Nor can we know fully the consequences of our actions in the long term. That is why it is usually better to listen to traditional wisdom and follow the rules...because the consequences have been identified in most cases.

[Aruntraveller]

That is why it is usually better to listen to traditional wisdom and follow the rules...because the consequences have been identified in most cases.

That sentence just serves as a call to stagnation and a 'I was only following orders' mentality.

[Shaker]

That sentence just serves as a call to stagnation and a 'I was only following orders' mentality.

Indeed. Sounds to me like the perfect recipe for being a mindless robot in thrall to "tradition" for its own sake, an entire fallacy - argumentum ad antiquitatem - as a blueprint for life.

[Sriram]

Are you guys trained to misunderstand and overreact?!  You do it quite well every single time, I must say!! 

[Shaker]

Are you guys trained to misunderstand and overreact?!  You do it quite well every single time, I must say!! 

Perhaps instead of whining that you're "misunderstood" every time, you tried explaining yourself better the first time?

[Sebastian Toe]

We are never free from the consequences of our 'free' actions. Nor can we know fully the consequences of our actions in the long term. That is why it is usually better to listen to traditional wisdom and follow the rules...because the consequences have been identified in most cases.

Whose wisdom and what rules exactly?

[Rhiannon]

That's a great article. If we don't fully understand the choices we make them we are enslaved. I felt for a long time that our education system has been giving an increasingly narrow viewpoint, best destctibec as 'it's ok to think so long as you think like this' and now demonstrated in the snowflake generation in universities refusing to platform anyone whose thinking is in any way challenging to that.

It also explains why I heard someone say that they voted for Brexit although they didn't really understand 'what the arguments were' - a lack of understanding seems to drive politics now in our era of alternative facts. We are rarely presented by truths, by politicians, professions, businesses. Our freedom it seems to me lies in opting out of as much of the machine as we can, but that is easier said than done.

[Sriram]

That's a great article. If we don't fully understand the choices we make them we are enslaved. I felt for a long time that our education system has been giving an increasingly narrow viewpoint, best destctibec as 'it's ok to think so long as you think like this' and now demonstrated in the snowflake generation in universities refusing to platform anyone whose thinking is in any way challenging to that.

It also explains why I heard someone say that they voted for Brexit although they didn't really understand 'what the arguments were' - a lack of understanding seems to drive politics now in our era of alternative facts. We are rarely presented by truths, by politicians, professions, businesses. Our freedom it seems to me lies in opting out of as much of the machine as we can, but that is easier said than done.

Rhinnon, the point is that no one really knows the long term consequences of their decisions. Neither Brexiters nor Remainers. Each group thinks the others are short sighted. In reality it is impossible to know the full consequences of whatever we decide. Things could take a very different course from what we had anticipated. For all you know Brexit could prove to be the best thing that happened to Britain.

Remember that the unconscious mind is said to make all our decisions and our conscious mind only comes to know it a little later. 

[Rhiannon]

No, we don't understand the consequences yet - but it is apparent that people didn't understand what the facts were in the present when making the decisions over Brexit. We aren't free in our voting if we aren't given the full facts or are lied to.

Similarly we aren't free in our decisions over shopping if we don't understand where the things we buy come from - few people would choose goose down pillows if they knew how the feathers are obtained, for example.

[Jack Knave]

No, we don't understand the consequences yet - but it is apparent that people didn't understand what the facts were in the present when making the decisions over Brexit. We aren't free in our voting if we aren't given the full facts or are lied to.

Similarly we aren't free in our decisions over shopping if we don't understand where the things we buy come from - few people would choose goose down pillows if they knew how the feathers are obtained, for example.

One is not given the facts one has to find them oneself. If one wants to be feed like a child then one will be as stupid, naïve and as gullible as a child.

[Shaker]

It also explains why I heard someone say that they voted for Brexit although they didn't really understand 'what the arguments were' - a lack of understanding seems to drive politics now in our era of alternative facts. We are rarely presented by truths, by politicians, professions, businesses. Our freedom it seems to me lies in opting out of as much of the machine as we can, but that is easier said than done.

Perhaps in this case (Brexit I mean) there were no facts as such to be given, it being a gamble, a risk, a venture like anything from trying a new breakfast cereal to a marriage - there are no 'facts' to be had in advance: more or less realistically grounded hopes, perhaps, but that's about all.

[Rhiannon]

I think there were facts about finances - how much we put in and take out. Gove certainly found some alternative facts on that one.

[Brownie]

Are you guys trained to misunderstand and overreact?!  You do it quite well every single time, I must say!! 

You ain't kidding, Sririam!

I understood what you meant, use the tried and trusted methods first;  doesn't mean being a slave to them, if they don't work, try something else.

[Sriram]

You ain't kidding, Sririam!

I understood what you meant, use the tried and trusted methods first;  doesn't mean being a slave to them, if they don't work, try something else.

Thanks  Brownie.    Absolutely! Yes...you have understood correctly!

[Jack Knave]

I think there were facts about finances - how much we put in and take out. Gove certainly found some alternative facts on that one.

There were facts about being in control and running our own affairs, and about the democratic process, without the stupidity of the unelected Brussels.

[Rhiannon]

There were facts about being in control and running our own affairs, and about the democratic process, without the stupidity of the unelected Brussels.

And this is where the uncertainty comes in, because we don't know to what extent we can run our own affairs in relation to any new trade agreements. We had no guarantee we would be more ' in control' after Brexit than before and we still don't have a clue.

[Jack Knave]

And this is where the uncertainty comes in, because we don't know to what extent we can run our own affairs in relation to any new trade agreements. We had no guarantee we would be more ' in control' after Brexit than before and we still don't have a clue.

There are no guarantees in life but to be just a helpless victim as Brussels impose their Ever Closer Union on us is not an option. Don't you go on about taking control and responsibility for your life with these pagan threads of yours? Well this is true of a nation and peoples. Just like an individual we need to learn some skills we once had - it's a learning curve.

[Rhiannon]

Yep, we've remembered this one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38784199

[torridon]

There are no guarantees in life but to be just a helpless victim as Brussels impose their Ever Closer Union on us is not an option...

Being a conspiracy theorist is blinding you to simple truths.  You need to grow past that to see clearly.  With the EU the clue is in the second word - Union.  It is not a dictatorship from which we need emancipation, it is a union of neighbours.

[Jack Knave]

Being a conspiracy theorist is blinding you to simple truths.  You need to grow past that to see clearly.  With the EU the clue is in the second word - Union.  It is not a dictatorship from which we need emancipation, it is a union of neighbours.

You're the one who is blind. Words are cheap and often mask the truth of what is actually going on, so flagging up the word Union is a fools errand. The term USSR has the word Union in it, and we know how that ended. I follow the facts and the human natures that are involved.

[torridon]

You're the one who is blind. Words are cheap and often mask the truth of what is actually going on, so flagging up the word Union is a fools errand. The term USSR has the word Union in it, and we know how that ended. I follow the facts and the human natures that are involved.

Facts ?  I think you mistake Daily Mail fuelled conspiracy theories, not facts.

[Jack Knave]

Facts ?  I think you mistake Daily Mail fuelled conspiracy theories, not facts.

Fact. I'm not guessing here, as you are about my reading list, which is all you have got in this argument. I did my homework years ago on this.

[Bubbles]

I think we are a lot freer than we think.

Sometimes people restrict their own horizons worrying about consequences.

People often say they can't do something, are not free to do something ( like climb Everest) then find the blind man with one leg, has gone ahead and done it anyway.

The biggest prison imo is the one you make yourself

[Jack Knave]

I think we are a lot freer than we think.

Sometimes people restrict their own horizons worrying about consequences.

People often say they can't do something, are not free to do something ( like climb Everest) then find the blind man with one leg, has gone ahead and done it anyway.

The biggest prison imo is the one you make yourself

Who's this blind man with one leg? How come he gets all the breaks?