Author Topic: Scriptural Interpretation  (Read 22600 times)

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #125 on: February 02, 2017, 05:33:33 PM »
Hi Prof,

I think that the point is that Christians themselves have to bring something to the party - they project. Thus if, say, you're a nasty piece of work Phelps type then you'll project that onto the text and expurgate the bits that don't suit. And vice versa. That way each of them ends up with a god that suits - loving, vengeful etc - made in his or her own image.

The only way out of that - to decide what the Bible actually "self-identifies" as rather than what you'd prefer it to self-identify as - is to find some logic or evidence outwith the text itself.

 I certainly agree with this, blue. You can certainly find texts of both kinds in both the Old and New Testaments. However, those Christians who want to be faithful to as much of the given text as possible will tend to say that God is both a god of love and justice. I'd have no problems with that, except that the idea of punishing individuals for all eternity for temporal crimes (or apparently, according to 1John, for simply not believing) doesn't seem to me to be particularly just.

And just to clarify matters for those who think that the Old Testament is the main repository of all nastiness and ideas of eternal torment: this is completely untrue. All ideas about eternal punishment belong to the New Testament, and are found nowhere else .
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #126 on: February 02, 2017, 07:03:00 PM »
Hi Dicky,

Quote
I certainly agree with this, blue. You can certainly find texts of both kinds in both the Old and New Testaments. However, those Christians who want to be faithful to as much of the given text as possible will tend to say that God is both a god of love and justice. I'd have no problems with that, except that the idea of punishing individuals for all eternity for temporal crimes (or apparently, according to 1John, for simply not believing) doesn't seem to me to be particularly just.

And just to clarify matters for those who think that the Old Testament is the main repository of all nastiness and ideas of eternal torment: this is completely untrue. All ideas about eternal punishment belong to the New Testament, and are found nowhere else .

Quite so. Just by way of a coda, I'd add that these "crimes" can be pretty iffy too. Why would, say, going to bed with someone of the same sex be thought criminal whereas genocide can apparently be fine and dandy for example?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #127 on: February 02, 2017, 07:39:28 PM »
Quote

What I find a more serious matter (which I've already alluded to earlier) is how Christians like Vlad manage to interpret texts that portray Jesus as not so meek and mild. Vlad has said that the important criterion in these matters is 'love' - that is what marks out true Christians. However, I don't know if he would use this as a yardstick to exclude certain texts from the NT itself, where love certainly doesn't seem to be the guiding principle. I quoted "Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and all his angels", which is an example, but certainly not the only one of this kind. As has been noted, we haven't heard Vlad justifiy himself on a number of things, and I'd certainly like to know how he deals with the fire-breathing Jesus: whether he just gets out his scissors and says "not authentic Jesus", or whether he has a convenient 'interpretation'.
First of all love concedes the possibility of rejection. Experience tells us that one can pour love onto someone without any constructive alteration. A haven of love I would say excludes for instance the purely selfish ego. As the orthodox might say heaven would actually seem like hell for some..

I think there is also the nominality question. Christianity is a distinctive thing which it is possible to be out with. It is perhaps those who think they have wangled inclusion who Jesus is referring to. Here not the Dawkinses of the world.

If one finds themselves troubled by this I would search oneself to find out how and why.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #128 on: February 02, 2017, 07:48:01 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
First of all love concedes the possibility of rejection. Experience tells us that one can pour love onto someone without any constructive alteration. A haven of love I would say excludes for instance the purely selfish ego. As the orthodox might say heaven would actually seem like hell for some..

Well, them’s words all right. Yup definitely words, I’ll give you that. Any chance of arranging them into a coherent sentence of some kind though, and better yet one that expresses a cogent thought of some kind?

Ta.

Quote
I think there is also the nominality question…

Oh gawd…

Quote
Christianity is a distinctive thing which it is possible to be out with. It is perhaps those who think they have wangled inclusion who Jesus is referring to. Here not the Dawkinses of the world.

And again, only with meaning or content please?

Quote
If one finds themselves troubled by this I would search oneself to find out how and why.

Not troubled, baffled. What are you even trying to say here?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #129 on: February 02, 2017, 07:50:45 PM »
Vlad,

Well, them’s words all right. Yup definitely words, I’ll give you that. Any chance of arranging them into a coherent sentence of some kind though, and better yet one that expresses a cogent thought of some kind?

Ta.

Oh gawd…

And again, only with meaning or content please?

Not troubled, baffled. What are you even trying to say here?
You've certainly got balls admitting to non comprehension of the straightforward.

Shaker

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #130 on: February 02, 2017, 07:55:10 PM »
First of all love concedes the possibility of rejection. Experience tells us that one can pour love onto someone without any constructive alteration.
You want to have a quiet word with your (apparent) co-religionist Alan Burns, who seems to think that love isn't love unless a reciprocal, requited two-way street.

Or at least he seems to think this sometimes; given that he's more often than not unclear and imprecise in his writing, and definitely more often than not unwilling to answer direct challenges to his belief system.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 07:58:51 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #131 on: February 02, 2017, 07:55:17 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
You've certainly got balls admitting to non comprehension of the straightforward.

It's straightforward all right - straightforwardly incomprehensible.

Calm yerself down, have a glass of something and try again only using plain terms that you actually understand and that express a cogent thought.

Go on, you know you want to don't you.

Don't you?
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Shaker

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #132 on: February 02, 2017, 08:01:52 PM »
Calm yerself down, have a glass of something and try again only using plain terms that you actually understand and that express a cogent thought.
For Findus crispy pancakes' sake, bluey, that leaves us with "yes", "no" and "potato."

Have a word with yourself, man.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #133 on: February 02, 2017, 08:09:37 PM »
Shakes,

Quote
For Findus crispy pancakes' sake, bluey, that leaves us with "yes", "no" and "potato."

Have a word with yourself, man.

Good point. OK Vlad, I'll allow you a few words you half understand too just to expand your vocab a bit.

Shoot!
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God

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #134 on: February 03, 2017, 04:33:39 PM »
First of all love concedes the possibility of rejection. Experience tells us that one can pour love onto someone without any constructive alteration. A haven of love I would say excludes for instance the purely selfish ego. As the orthodox might say heaven would actually seem like hell for some..

As is well known, there are a number of words for 'love' in koine Greek, and it is important to understand what you actually mean by 'love' in this case, God's love, before you start making comparisons with one-to-one human situations. The Orthodox concept I've always found particularly unconvincing, since it seems predicated on the ideas of convinced believers who cannot
imagine a situation where there is no God as the ultimate reality, and presume that therefore anyone who does not believe must be consciously or unconsciously directly rejecting the supposed divine reality. A little more acquaintance with the actuality of what humans experience in their lives gives the lie to this idea - there are many genuine seekers who have not found, or some who thought they had found, and then realised they were deceiving themselves (myself included). Such would be the last to reject a divine presence, if there were one.
Quote
I think there is also the nominality question. Christianity is a distinctive thing which it is possible to be out with. It is perhaps those who think they have wangled inclusion who Jesus is referring to. Here not the Dawkinses of the world.

In this instance, you appear to be confusing a similar quote at Matthew 7 with the very specific one I referred to in Matthew 25. Both refer to 'doing the will of the Father', but the second one (which has the eternal fire reference) simply states what the fate of the cursed will be if they do not do good works. The former quote is more subtle, and refers to those who act from hypocritical motives, doing 'great works' in Jesus' name - however, there is no reference to eternal punishment here.

There is, of course, another possibility - on the assumption that there was a real historical Jesus, whose sayings and doings are buried somewhere in the NT text, and that Jesus himself had some sense of continuity in his mission. The possibility is that some of these texts are simply inauthentic - particularly the hell-fire one. Since Jesus made constant references to the Jewish law, 'one jot nor tittle of which would pass away', and was very familiar with the OT, he would certainly have been aware that there is not one reference to hell-fire therein, so would have been unlikely to start spouting such ideas, which largely grew up in the inter-testamental period.
I take the view (which I owe to Geza Vermes and others) that Jesus was Jewish through and through in his outlook, and that all other ideas expressed in the gospels are later accretions, reflecting the personal gripes and/or ardent aspirations of the evangelists who wrote about him.

Quote
If one finds themselves troubled by this I would search oneself to find out how and why.

I personally have ceased to be 'troubled' by these matters, since I have no axe to grind about convincing myself that the NT in any way portrays a consistent religious, philosophical or any other kind of view. I leave it to the true believers to be honest with themselves about what the text may or may not be trying to convey.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 04:36:28 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #135 on: February 04, 2017, 10:53:36 AM »
As is well known, there are a number of words for 'love' in koine Greek, and it is important to understand what you actually mean by 'love' in this case, God's love, before you start making comparisons with one-to-one human situations. The Orthodox concept I've always found particularly unconvincing, since it seems predicated on the ideas of convinced believers who cannot
imagine a situation where there is no God as the ultimate reality, and presume that therefore anyone who does not believe must be consciously or unconsciously directly rejecting the supposed divine reality. A little more acquaintance with the actuality of what humans experience in their lives gives the lie to this idea .
I'm not sure how sound the claim that 'I am not unconsciously rejecting God' or indeed ''not unconsciously doing anything without a physical consequence'' can be.

There is the Henry Higgins effect in My Fair Lady where Prof Higgins realises his love for Eliza. Augustine writes of the moment of realisation of what he had been doing vis a vis God.

Of course many many Christians have experienced a moment and then are able to backwork the signs.

A genuine intellectual non believer may not yet have met God. And that thought may feel troubling in itself.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 10:56:32 AM by Emergence-The musical »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #136 on: February 04, 2017, 11:02:47 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
A genuine intellectual non believer may not yet have met God.

Anyone up for a game of fallacy top trumps?

I'll go first with this reification fallacy.

Doubtless you'll be along soon Vlad to explain away the contradiction inherent in someone reasoning his way to "no god" then being troubled by not meeting this god. How troubled are you exactly by not yet meeting Colin, the Great Chieftain of the Leprechauns? 

Just a wee bit anxious maybe?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 11:05:20 AM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #137 on: February 04, 2017, 11:08:17 AM »
Vlad,

Anyone up for a game of fallacy top trumps?

I'll go first with this reification fallacy.

Doubtless you'll be along soon Vlad to explain away the contradiction inherent in someone reasoning his way to "no god" then being troubled by not meeting this god. How troubled are you exactly by not yet meeting Colin, the Great Chieftain of the Leprechauns? 

Just a wee bit anxious maybe?
Reason his way to ''No God?'' I don't think even the great Dawks has done that.

I think it's not for you but for Dicky to offer his ''reasoning'' or even his agreement that he has ever reasoned his way to ''No God''.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #138 on: February 04, 2017, 11:10:49 AM »
A genuine intellectual non believer may not yet have met God. And that thought may feel troubling in itself.
Which translates to 'you are wrong but you don't yet realise you are wrong'.

How patronising is that.

And I think that suggestion doesn't really align with our cultural upbringing. We aren't in a society where atheists and agnostics may have drifted through life unaware of the concept of God or Christianity and therefore not really met God. Rather in the UK most kids are very well aware of the notion of God and Christianity from a very early age. Even if not brought up in a religious household our schooling system (not just faith schools) is biased towards a default position that there is a God, and likely that God is the Christian God - certainly this will be true through primary school years.

So rather than atheists and agnostics not having the chance to interact with 'God' and Christianity they will have had ample opportunity, probably considered themselves believers as children (as that's what drops out of the culture within their society and schools) and have come to recognise as they become adults that there is nothing in it - no evidence for God, no need for God and therefore choose not to believe.

Certainly through my own upbringing (child born in mid 60s) the default was that you should believe and indeed I spent plenty of time thinking I did believe, indeed trying to believe. But the reality was that I didn't, as soon as I wasn't trying it was clear to me that I didn't believe, try as I might. I then got to the point (early 20s) of coming to recognise that I didn't believe and at that point I went with my gut, my intellect and my conscience and accepted that I was an atheist. Since that time nothing has really shifted that view - I've never really had doubts about my atheism.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #139 on: February 04, 2017, 11:19:45 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Reason his way to ''No God?'' I don't think even the great Dawks has done that.

I think it's not for you but for Dicky to offer his ''reasoning'' or even his agreement that he has ever reasoned his way to ''No God''.

"No god" meaning "no reason for me to think there's a god" here (though I'm impressed that you've finally grasped what atheism actually entails), but way to avoid the point. Again: why do you think that someone who's rationalised his way to there being no reason to think there to be a god would also be troubled by not "meeting" that god?   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #140 on: February 04, 2017, 01:21:53 PM »
Which translates to 'you are wrong but you don't yet realise you are wrong'.

How patronising is that.

I'm afraid that's the implication of anyone arguing a position they hold.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #141 on: February 04, 2017, 01:24:51 PM »
Vlad,

"No god" meaning "no reason for me to think there's a god" here
Thanks for the qualification. We now have your actual mere assertion.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #142 on: February 04, 2017, 01:29:06 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Thanks for the qualification. We now have your actual mere assertion.

Presumably that meant something in your head when you typed it?

Anyway, the question you're trying to deflect us from concerned why on earth an atheist would be "troubled" by the idea of "not meeting" god as you claimed. If you're going to keep avoiding it that's up to you, but it'd save time at least if you just said so.

Ta.

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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #143 on: February 04, 2017, 01:39:31 PM »
Which translates to 'you are wrong but you don't yet realise you are wrong'.

How patronising is that.

And I think that suggestion doesn't really align with our cultural upbringing. We aren't in a society where atheists and agnostics may have drifted through life unaware of the concept of God or Christianity and therefore not really met God. Rather in the UK most kids are very well aware of the notion of God and Christianity from a very early age. Even if not brought up in a religious household our schooling system (not just faith schools) is biased towards a default position that there is a God, and likely that God is the Christian God - certainly this will be true through primary school years.

So rather than atheists and agnostics not having the chance to interact with 'God' and Christianity they will have had ample opportunity, probably considered themselves believers as children (as that's what drops out of the culture within their society and schools) and have come to recognise as they become adults that there is nothing in it - no evidence for God, no need for God and therefore choose not to believe.

Certainly through my own upbringing (child born in mid 60s) the default was that you should believe and indeed I spent plenty of time thinking I did believe, indeed trying to believe. But the reality was that I didn't, as soon as I wasn't trying it was clear to me that I didn't believe, try as I might. I then got to the point (early 20s) of coming to recognise that I didn't believe and at that point I went with my gut, my intellect and my conscience and accepted that I was an atheist. Since that time nothing has really shifted that view - I've never really had doubts about my atheism.
As someone a bit older my experience was that RE was a bolt on extension of Bible stories rather than a briefing in the theological and anthropological aspects of Christianity.
Very few children I imagine would have been exposed to an evangelical treatment of Christianity.
These shortfalls are evident in the poverty of theological knowledge neatly demonstrated by Dawkins in his concession that he didn't needn't need to know about theology.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #144 on: February 04, 2017, 01:42:44 PM »
Vlad,

Presumably that meant something in your head when you typed it?

Anyway, the question you're trying to deflect us from concerned why on earth an atheist would be "troubled" by the idea of "not meeting" god as you claimed. If you're going to keep avoiding it that's up to you, but it'd save time at least if you just said so.

Ta.
I'm sure there are untroubled atheists. But those posting copiously on a religious forum are evidently not among them.........mind you I think that puts you in a better position than them.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #145 on: February 04, 2017, 01:52:09 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I'm sure there are untroubled atheists. But those posting copiously on a religious forum are evidently not among them.........mind you I think that puts you in a better position than them.

Oh dear. Atheists may well be “troubled” by the behaviour of theists, but not by the prospect of “not meeting god” – which was the claim from which you’ve (presumably) now resiled.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #146 on: February 04, 2017, 01:55:51 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
These shortfalls are evident in the poverty of theological knowledge neatly demonstrated by Dawkins in his concession that he didn't needn't need to know about theology.

You keep feeding me the fallacies, I'll keep knocking 'em out of the park!

I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor’s boots, nor does he give a moment’s consideration to Bellini’s masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor’s Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor’s raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must, wear undergarments of the finest silk.

Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.


(P Z Myers)

Presumably you made a deep study of leprechaunology before dismissing its claims then?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #147 on: February 04, 2017, 02:53:05 PM »
Vlad,

You keep feeding me the fallacies, I'll keep knocking 'em out of the park!

I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor’s boots, nor does he give a moment’s consideration to Bellini’s masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor’s Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor’s raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must, wear undergarments of the finest silk.

Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.


(P Z Myers)

Presumably you made a deep study of leprechaunology before dismissing its claims then?
Ah, The Myers shuffle.....Warmed over atheist wankfodder.

Wordage equals argument eh Hillside. Ha Ha.

Presumably Myers wasn't getting sufficient attention when he put a pin in a communion wafer.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #148 on: February 04, 2017, 02:55:59 PM »
Vlad,

Oh dear. Atheists may well be “troubled” by the behaviour of theists.
I don't think all are....and that is where Dawkins has difficulty with fellow atheists in his displays of the ''No true scotsman'' fallacy.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Scriptural Interpretation
« Reply #149 on: February 04, 2017, 07:23:51 PM »
As someone a bit older my experience was that RE was a bolt on extension of Bible stories rather than a briefing in the theological and anthropological aspects of Christianity.
Very few children I imagine would have been exposed to an evangelical treatment of Christianity.
So what - in all sorts of area young children tend to be exposed to a simplistic version of ideas for the very reason that they are ... err ... children.

But that is irrelevant - the point I was making was that most kids in the UK would have been exposed to the bible, the notion of god and to christianity. None of these are hidden concepts, yet you try to imply that atheists are so because of a lack of exposure to the bible, the notion of god and to christianity. Your argument completely lacks credibility. Indeed the reverse has far more credence - in other words that many kids grow up without it being explained to them that some people don't believe in god, and that it is OK not to believe in god. I certainly was never exposed to the concept of atheism as I grew up - it was something I came to recognise in myself without ever having the notion formally suggested to me through the education system and with very limited visibility of the notion culturally.

These shortfalls are evident in the poverty of theological knowledge neatly demonstrated by Dawkins in his concession that he didn't needn't need to know about theology.
This is an entirely different point, but is also a very weak one.

If you do not believe in god then the details of the theology that flow from a belief in god aren't relevant. I presume you don't believe in the ancient norse gods. Now you might find it interesting to learn about their theology, but I'm sure you would accept that there is no necessity so to do. And in that respect you would be using exactly the same argument as Dawkins. Although why you remain obsessed by him eludes me.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 07:33:16 PM by ProfessorDavey »