Author Topic: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind  (Read 13329 times)

Sriram

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Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« on: February 01, 2017, 05:42:36 AM »
Hi everyone,

What evidence do we have for any non material form of  life? Problem is that, we gather all evidence only through our five senses. Only those things that we can see or hear or taste or smell or feel,...we consider as existing. We believe that things that we cannot sense cannot exist or  at least, we cannot know of them. 

This is obviously a wrong way to go about it because our senses have evolved for specific purposes on earth and we cannot rely entirely on them to give us all information about the world. The world could be much more complex than we imagine. 

Suppose some people have a faculty through which they are able to sense certain forces, patterns and influences in our lives that we cannot sense through the other five senses...wouldn't they consider these influences also as a normal part of life?  Of course they would!

I have mentioned many times about how we can never prove to a stubborn born blind person that Light exists. Even though Light exists everywhere all around them, blind people cannot sense it and if they are sufficiently stubborn, they could insist that it does not exist at all. And it is impossible to prove it to them conclusively.

However, some of the blind people may accept that something called 'Light' exists purely on faith because others are saying so. 

Similarly, whatever patterns and influences are sensed by those people who have the extra faculty, cannot be communicated to those who do not have this ability.  It is almost impossible. However, some people may accept on faith what is told by the others.

What are these patterns and influences and what causes them....we cannot say off hand. We just know that these occur.  But it is possible that they relate to ... the Unconscious Mind.

We know from recent scientific research that what is often called the Unconscious Mind influences our decisions and our lives. We know that the Unconscious Mind creates placebo effects that can sometimes cure illnesses. It can foresee and forecast better than the rational mind.  It is awake when the conscious mind is asleep. 

It has been pointed out by scientists that  unlike earlier impressions, the Unconscious Mind is actually very powerful and very influential.  It is not just a memory bank as some people think. Some people have even compared it to a closet in the mansion.... where the Unconscious Mind is the mansion and the conscious mind is the closet.  Many people including Freud have compared it to a iceberg where 90% is the hidden Unconscious Mind and only 10% is the seen Conscious Mind.

It is therefore possible that the subtle influences and underlying patterns that are sensed by many people are actually the working of the Unconscious Mind.  Whether this Unconscious Mind is connected to an independent agency like the Spirit or Self cannot be said emphatically, but cannot be ruled out either. NDE's and other 'paranormal' experiences do point towards such an independent agency. 

So...why do people have faith in an unseen power? Because they are able to sense the powerful influence of the Unconscious Mind in their normal lives even though we are unaware of its existence. What evidence do we have? There is plenty of evidence for the Unconscious Mind. We should just know how to connect the dots.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120910152011.htm

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160315-the-enormous-power-of-the-unconscious-brain

Cheers.

Sriram



SusanDoris

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2017, 06:17:46 AM »
Light.
All people who can see light have independent, objective knowledge of it, therefore a totally blind person has no reason not to believe that it exists.

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Similarly, whatever patterns and influences are sensed by those people who have the extra faculty, cannot be communicated to those who do not have this ability.  It is almost impossible. However, some people may accept on faith what is told by the others.
Similarly is entirely the wrong word to use.  The 'extra faculty' has zero evidence for it and is not objective.

*sigh* I knew I shouldn't have read that OP! :D

 
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Bubbles

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2017, 07:31:34 AM »
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I have mentioned many times about how we can never prove to a stubborn born blind person that Light exists. Even though Light exists everywhere all around them, blind people cannot sense it and if they are sufficiently stubborn, they could insist that it does not exist at all. And it is impossible to prove it to them conclusively.

Lots of wavelengths of light are invisible, and we can't see them.
But they are still measurable.

http://www.livescience.com/50260-infrared-radiation.html


What the issue is, is claiming there is a form of light which we are unable to measure.

It's not being invisible that's the problem, it's not being able to confirm its there in some way.

It's measurability.

People are skeptical of any claim that can't be measured.

If I claimed that there was a different light that no one could see, scientists would expect me to show it in some way.

we are all blind in some spectrums of light, no one is saying they don't exist.

The problem is you can't just take people's word on it.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 07:35:24 AM by Rose »

Stranger

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2017, 09:33:30 AM »
What evidence do we have for any non material form of  life? Problem is that, we gather all evidence only through our five senses. Only those things that we can see or hear or taste or smell or feel,...we consider as existing. We believe that things that we cannot sense cannot exist or  at least, we cannot know of them. 

Speak for yourself. Do you not accept the non-visible (vast majority) part of the electromagnetic spectrum? Atoms? There are endless things that rational humans accept (due to the evidence) that cannot be directly sensed.

I have mentioned many times about how we can never prove to a stubborn born blind person that Light exists. Even though Light exists everywhere all around them, blind people cannot sense it and if they are sufficiently stubborn, they could insist that it does not exist at all. And it is impossible to prove it to them conclusively.

However, some of the blind people may accept that something called 'Light' exists purely on faith because others are saying so. 

This is idiotic and insulting to the blind. Just as most people accept (say) ultraviolet, so any rational blind person, open to objective evidence, will accept light. Zero faith needed.

Similarly, whatever patterns and influences are sensed by those people who have the extra faculty, cannot be communicated to those who do not have this ability.  It is almost impossible. However, some people may accept on faith what is told by the others.

Drivel. Just as with ultraviolet and light for blind people, if there is evidence, it will be accepted.

Whether this Unconscious Mind is connected to an independent agency like the Spirit or Self cannot be said emphatically, but cannot be ruled out either. NDE's and other 'paranormal' experiences do point towards such an independent agency.

So...why do people have faith in an unseen power? Because they are able to sense the powerful influence of the Unconscious Mind in their normal lives even though we are unaware of its existence. What evidence do we have? There is plenty of evidence for the Unconscious Mind. We should just know how to connect the dots.

We've done NDEs (the clue is in what the N stands for) and the paranormal (no reliable evidence) before.

If you think the unconscious mind is connected to some ghostly thingy, then you need to define what that means and provide evidence for that - not the unconscious mind itself. Your "joining the dots" seems to mean "jumping to the conclusion I'd like"...
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Outrider

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2017, 11:41:28 AM »
Oh boy....

What evidence do we have for any non material form of  life?

None, that I'm aware of.

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Problem is that, we gather all evidence only through our five senses.

Firstly, there are significantly more than five senses. Secondly, most of the evidence we collect, in this day and age, is actually gathered by mechanical recording machinery, and only accessed via our senses after the fact.

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Only those things that we can see or hear or taste or smell or feel,...we consider as existing. We believe that things that we cannot sense cannot exist or  at least, we cannot know of them.

Not necessarily. Dark Matter and Dark Energy are both considered to probably exist, although we've not been able to directly detect them - we interpret what we can detect, and then hypothesise about what we might not be able to detect, what properties it might have, and then derive experiments to demonstrate those theories are correct. We don't rely our senses, we consider those things which demonstrably have an effect on other things to exist - if something has no effect then a) how are to we to tell that it exist, and b) what's the difference between it and something that doesn't? 

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This is obviously a wrong way to go about it because our senses have evolved for specific purposes on earth and we cannot rely entirely on them to give us all information about the world. The world could be much more complex than we imagine.

It could be, but unless you've got a methodology for determining what you are or aren't going to accept, you just have to accept every possible or impossible conjecture on the equal basis that someone's come up with it. 

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Suppose some people have a faculty through which they are able to sense certain forces, patterns and influences in our lives that we cannot sense through the other five senses...wouldn't they consider these influences also as a normal part of life?  Of course they would!

Yep. And then, to convince the rest of us, they need to demonstrate it - like most of the great scientists of the past have done, in various ways.

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I have mentioned many times about how we can never prove to a stubborn born blind person that Light exists.

Of course you can - you describe the effect, explain your idea of the cause, support it with the mathematics, predict from the theory the effect in a different situation, and then demonstrate that it happens. Blind people aren't stupid, they're blind, and they know they're blind. Maxwell's excellent demonstrations that light and magnetism are linked means that you can shine an infra-red lamp onto a blind person's hand and they can detect the heat - let's call that the sixth of your five senses - and they've detected exactly the same physical phenomenon (electromagnetism) from a different effect that it has.

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Even though Light exists everywhere all around them, blind people cannot sense it and if they are sufficiently stubborn, they could insist that it does not exist at all. And it is impossible to prove it to them conclusively.

The important bit there being, of course, if they are sufficiently stubborn - just like you can't convince someone that non-material claims in the absence of  any sort of methodological framework for establishing their veracity have no validity. If I wanted to be particularly stubborn I could deny the existence of New Zealand, because I've not been there, but there is sufficient evidence from other sources for me to accept that it exists - to not accept it would be unreasonable on my part, not a flaw in the arguments.

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However, some of the blind people may accept that something called 'Light' exists purely on faith because others are saying so.

You are confusing 'faith' with 'trust'. Trust is the acceptance of a claim because of circumstancial support (such as a reliance on personal testimony from a source considered reliable), whereas faith is the acceptance of a claim in the absence of any justification.

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Similarly, whatever patterns and influences are sensed by those people who have the extra faculty, cannot be communicated to those who do not have this ability.  It is almost impossible.

'Flatland', by Edwin Abbot is an entertaining expansion of this idea.

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However, some people may accept on faith what is told by the others.

Or they may, as social creatures, trust some of what they've been told.

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What are these patterns and influences and what causes them....we cannot say off hand. We just know that these occur.  But it is possible that they relate to ... the Unconscious Mind.

And there's the leap of faith... The problem with people making claims of unsubstantiated sensory perceptions is that there is no way to independently or reliably validate them. Even blind people can operate machinery that can detect light intensity, frequency, direction of emanation.

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We know from recent scientific research that what is often called the Unconscious Mind influences our decisions and our lives.

Yes.

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We know that the Unconscious Mind creates placebo effects that can sometimes cure illnesses.

No, the unconscious mind can create placebo effects that mitigate some of the effects of illnesses, but the illness itself is still defeated by either the body's reasonably well-defined mechanisms or the external support of medicine.

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It can foresee and forecast better than the rational mind.

It can't operate anything like as reliably, however, and is prone to false positives.

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It is awake when the conscious mind is asleep.

Which is interesting, but of any particularly strong use.

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It has been pointed out by scientists that  unlike earlier impressions, the Unconscious Mind is actually very powerful and very influential.  It is not just a memory bank as some people think. Some people have even compared it to a closet in the mansion.... where the Unconscious Mind is the mansion and the conscious mind is the closet.  Many people including Freud have compared it to a iceberg where 90% is the hidden Unconscious Mind and only 10% is the seen Conscious Mind.

None of which changes that lack of reliability or improves the hit rate.

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It is therefore possible that the subtle influences and underlying patterns that are sensed by many people are actually the working of the Unconscious Mind.

The problem isn't whether it's the unconscious or conscious mind that's generating these signals, but whether they are accurately interpreting the situation.

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Whether this Unconscious Mind is connected to an independent agency like the Spirit or Self cannot be said emphatically, but cannot be ruled out either.

Many things can't be definitively ruled out, that's not a sufficient basis to accept them.

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NDE's and other 'paranormal' experiences do point towards such an independent agency.

Or, to a tendency for the human subconscious to operate as though there were.

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So...why do people have faith in an unseen power?

If we knew that, perhaps we'd be able to cure them of it?

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Because they are able to sense the powerful influence of the Unconscious Mind in their normal lives even though we are unaware of its existence. What evidence do we have? There is plenty of evidence for the Unconscious Mind. We should just know how to connect the dots.

A long an error-ridden attempt to say there must be something spiritual, because some people feel that's the case. Argumentum ad populum is still not valid, even when you cite neuroscience for some elements of your argument.

O.
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New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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torridon

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2017, 12:33:36 PM »
Hi everyone,

...

So...why do people have faith in an unseen power? Because they are able to sense the powerful influence of the Unconscious Mind in their normal lives even though we are unaware of its existence. What evidence do we have? There is plenty of evidence for the Unconscious Mind. We should just know how to connect the dots.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120910152011.htm

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160315-the-enormous-power-of-the-unconscious-brain

Cheers.

Sriram

Nothing spooky or controversial about unconscious mind.  The vast majority of mind function does not need consciousness; we wouldn't get far in life if we had to remember to beat our heart or draw breath all the time. The more interesting thing to consider, is why we do have consciousness at all.

Bubbles

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2017, 12:37:15 PM »
Nothing spooky or controversial about unconscious mind.  The vast majority of mind function does not need consciousness; we wouldn't get far in life if we had to remember to beat our heart or draw breath all the time. The more interesting thing to consider, is why we do have consciousness at all.

Presumably so that we can react quickly to the world around us, while unconscious stuff is managed elsewhere.

Sriram

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2017, 09:38:11 AM »
Nothing spooky or controversial about unconscious mind.  The vast majority of mind function does not need consciousness; we wouldn't get far in life if we had to remember to beat our heart or draw breath all the time. The more interesting thing to consider, is why we do have consciousness at all.


Why should the Unconscious Mind be spooky or controversial? You have this 'two boxes' problem. If something is not hard science it has to be woo or spooky or magic!!!  A binary way of looking at things.  ::)

The unconscious mind is a fact. It exists and is largely unknown and possibly unknowable.

Its possible that much of what people experience as extraordinary is in fact something generated by the unconscious mind. Why should this be controversial? 

Sriram

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2017, 09:49:06 AM »

Outrider,

If a born blind man is stubborn and skeptical, and does not want to believe your words or experiments...there is nothing you can do to convince him that there is such a thing as Light that is in fact falling on his body at that very moment....and forms a fundamental feature of life on earth.

My point is very simple. Merely the absence of one single faculty can make us completely cut off from a very fundamental and crucial aspect of life such as Light, to such an extent, that we can exist life long with no awareness of it what so ever. And no experiments or instruments can convince us of its existence unless we want to believe in it.....and nor can we actually know what it really is through these indirect methods. Only a direct experience through 'sight' can give us that.

Awareness of certain unseen aspects of life that we call 'spiritual', are similar. For many people spiritual forces and influences are as natural and as pervasive as light is to all of us....however skeptical others may be of them.   

BeRational

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2017, 11:25:30 AM »
Outrider,

If a born blind man is stubborn and skeptical, and does not want to believe your words or experiments...there is nothing you can do to convince him that there is such a thing as Light that is in fact falling on his body at that very moment....and forms a fundamental feature of life on earth.

My point is very simple. Merely the absence of one single faculty can make us completely cut off from a very fundamental and crucial aspect of life such as Light, to such an extent, that we can exist life long with no awareness of it what so ever. And no experiments or instruments can convince us of its existence unless we want to believe in it.....and nor can we actually know what it really is through these indirect methods. Only a direct experience through 'sight' can give us that.

Awareness of certain unseen aspects of life that we call 'spiritual', are similar. For many people spiritual forces and influences are as natural and as pervasive as light is to all of us....however skeptical others may be of them.

I believe  X-rays exist, but I have never seen them.
I believe other wavelengths of light exist but I have never seen them either.

For both of the above, I do not WANT to believe in them, I am convinced by evidence.

I see gullible people, everywhere!

torridon

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2017, 11:29:50 AM »
Outrider,

If a born blind man is stubborn and skeptical, and does not want to believe your words or experiments...there is nothing you can do to convince him that there is such a thing as Light that is in fact falling on his body at that very moment....and forms a fundamental feature of life on earth.

My point is very simple. Merely the absence of one single faculty can make us completely cut off from a very fundamental and crucial aspect of life such as Light, to such an extent, that we can exist life long with no awareness of it what so ever. And no experiments or instruments can convince us of its existence unless we want to believe in it.....and nor can we actually know what it really is through these indirect methods. Only a direct experience through 'sight' can give us that.

Awareness of certain unseen aspects of life that we call 'spiritual', are similar. For many people spiritual forces and influences are as natural and as pervasive as light is to all of us....however skeptical others may be of them.

Something of an elision between stubbornness and scepticism there. Stubbornness being a character flaw and all humans are flawed. Scepticism I would say in general terms as closer to being a virtue for any would be thinker or investigator; from Socrates to Feynmann, it is an attitude that challenges dogma and received wisdom with a 'question everything', 'take nothing just on someone's say-so' which has proved fruitful in eliminating the overwhelming majority of incorrect ideas to get closer to accurate understanding.

Shaker

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2017, 12:04:03 PM »
Scepticism I would say in general terms as closer to being a virtue for any would be thinker or investigator; from Socrates to Feynmann, it is an attitude that challenges dogma and received wisdom with a 'question everything', 'take nothing just on someone's say-so' which has proved fruitful in eliminating the overwhelming majority of incorrect ideas to get closer to accurate understanding.
Not to Sriram. It's a "Stage 2" "adolescent trait" to him, apparently.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 12:48:36 PM by Shaker »
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Stranger

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2017, 12:22:09 PM »
If a born blind man is stubborn and skeptical, and does not want to believe your words or experiments...there is nothing you can do to convince him that there is such a thing as Light that is in fact falling on his body at that very moment....and forms a fundamental feature of life on earth.

My point is very simple. Merely the absence of one single faculty can make us completely cut off from a very fundamental and crucial aspect of life such as Light, to such an extent, that we can exist life long with no awareness of it what so ever. And no experiments or instruments can convince us of its existence unless we want to believe in it.....and nor can we actually know what it really is through these indirect methods. Only a direct experience through 'sight' can give us that.

This is still an idiotic and offensive argument - your 'blind man' would have to be stupid and unwilling to accept evidence, not sceptical.
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Sriram

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2017, 01:11:47 PM »
Argumentum ad populum!  Just because others are saying so why should he accept it?

What evidence does the blind man have for Light? It is something outside his comprehension, something he can't experience and something that according to him is not even necessary in the world. It is completely outside the natural world and completely unnecessary.The world is fine without Light. Everything else like gravity, sound, smell, taste work fine without it. Why complicate matters?  Occums Razor...! 

If Light exists everywhere....Prove it! Why is he not able to feel it? He is able to feel water and air and other things...so why not Light?

Some buzzing in one instrument and some heat from another instrument do not prove that something called Light exists!! That could be because of so many other reasons. 

« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 02:42:23 PM by Sriram »

BeRational

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2017, 01:34:35 PM »
Can you feel photons or gravitational waves?

If not, why would you believe in them?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2017, 02:55:48 PM »
Argumentum ad populum!  Just because others are saying so why should he accept it?

Do you accept (as I assume you do) that there are radio waves, ultraviolet, gamma waves, atoms, electrons, electrostatic fields, etc. etc. etc. just because of the number of people who say that they exist?

Likewise, any sane blind person would accept light.

This isn't rocket science, get a grip!
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SusanDoris

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2017, 03:47:24 PM »
Argumentum ad populum!  Just because others are saying so why should he accept it?

What evidence does the blind man have for Light? It is something outside his comprehension, something he can't experience and something that according to him is not even necessary in the world. It is completely outside the natural world and completely unnecessary.The world is fine without Light. Everything else like gravity, sound, smell, taste work fine without it. Why complicate matters?  Occums Razor...! 

If Light exists everywhere....Prove it! Why is he not able to feel it? He is able to feel water and air and other things...so why not Light?

Some buzzing in one instrument and some heat from another instrument do not prove that something called Light exists!! That could be because of so many other reasons.
Your understanding of blind people is very sadly lacking. Those who are born totally blind have to work twice as hard as those who see in order to live their lives with some degree of independence. If you can name a blind person who does not believe that light exists, I shall be extremely surprised.
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ekim

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2017, 05:05:30 PM »
Your understanding of blind people is very sadly lacking. Those who are born totally blind have to work twice as hard as those who see in order to live their lives with some degree of independence. If you can name a blind person who does not believe that light exists, I shall be extremely surprised.
I may be wrong but I think Sriram is trying to distinguish between a sighted person who knows that light exists because of personal experience and a blind person who believes that light exists through cogent explanations given by others who are sighted.  There was quite a good short story by H. G. Wells called the Land of the Blind where a sighted person stumbled into a land where everybody was blind.  He made a nuisance of himself trying to convince everybody that he had vision.  The elders eventually decided that he was mad and that the cause was the deformities called eyes and that the cure was to remove them.

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2017, 05:19:29 PM »
I may be wrong but I think Sriram is trying to distinguish between a sighted person who knows that light exists because of personal experience and a blind person who believes that light exists through cogent explanations given by others who are sighted.

I suggest you go back and read what he has said. He has specifically rejected what sighted people might say:-

Argumentum ad populum!  Just because others are saying so why should he accept it?

True to form, he's got a daft idea into his head that he thinks will justify the various varieties of woo that he likes to peddle and no amount of reason or logic is going persuade him of its daftness.
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ekim

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2017, 05:39:23 PM »
I suggest you go back and read what he has said. He has specifically rejected what sighted people might say:-

True to form, he's got a daft idea into his head that he thinks will justify the various varieties of woo that he likes to peddle and no amount of reason or logic is going persuade him of its daftness.
OK, I'll leave him to clarify.

Sriram

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2017, 10:20:50 AM »
I may be wrong but I think Sriram is trying to distinguish between a sighted person who knows that light exists because of personal experience and a blind person who believes that light exists through cogent explanations given by others who are sighted.  There was quite a good short story by H. G. Wells called the Land of the Blind where a sighted person stumbled into a land where everybody was blind.  He made a nuisance of himself trying to convince everybody that he had vision.  The elders eventually decided that he was mad and that the cause was the deformities called eyes and that the cure was to remove them.


Thanks ekim. Yes...you're right. 

Suppose a community of born blind people lived for generations on an island, they wouldn't know of anything called Light and would find it completely unnecessary (if somebody told them about it). Their life would go on  normally with no idea of anything called Light.....though it exists all around them. 

My point is that we could live all our lives completely oblivious of something that is a vital part of our life.  This brings out the questionable nature of what we call knowledge...and our natural abilities and limitations  to actually know the world around us.

My second point in the OP was about the Unconscious Mind that we know exists.....but about which we know  very little, if anything. This part of us seems to have almost uncanny capabilities that we would not normally associate with natural physical laws or known biological functions.    Maybe much of what we normally associate with spiritual experiences can be explained through the Unconscious Mind.

Stranger

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2017, 10:41:43 AM »
Thanks ekim. Yes...you're right.

Suppose a community of born blind people lived for generations on an island, they wouldn't know of anything called Light and would find it completely unnecessary (if somebody told them about it). Their life would go on  normally with no idea of anything called Light.....though it exists all around them. 

Totally contradicting his previous posts, Sriram totally changes his analogy. Okay: humankind lived in ignorance of the non-visible part of the EM spectrum for most of its history. Then we discovered the rest, using the tools of science - notably scepticism: test everything - don't accept anything without evidence.

My second point in the OP was about the Unconscious Mind that we know exists.....but about which we know  very little, if anything. This part of us seems to have almost uncanny capabilities that we would not normally associate with natural physical laws or known biological functions.    Maybe much of what we normally associate with spiritual experiences can be explained through the Unconscious Mind.

Test everything - don't accept anything without evidence.
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torridon

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2017, 11:20:34 AM »

Suppose a community of born blind people lived for generations on an island, they wouldn't know of anything called Light and would find it completely unnecessary (if somebody told them about it). Their life would go on  normally with no idea of anything called Light.....though it exists all around them. 

My point is that we could live all our lives completely oblivious of something that is a vital part of our life.  This brings out the questionable nature of what we call knowledge...and our natural abilities and limitations  to actually know the world around us.

Since Galileo at least, we have well understood the limitations of our natural senses.  So, we build machines to do the detecting for us now.

My second point in the OP was about the Unconscious Mind that we know exists.....but about which we know  very little, if anything. This part of us seems to have almost uncanny capabilities that we would not normally associate with natural physical laws or known biological functions.    Maybe much of what we normally associate with spiritual experiences can be explained through the Unconscious Mind.

Mind has no direct access to the outside world; it exists in a cool dark moist environment completely enclosed by bone.  One thing, therefore, that mind is not, is a sense organ. Mind can only work with data procured through its attached sense organs - eyes, ears etc. but itself, it captures no original data.  If people are claiming spiritual experience, then it cannot be because their minds have some novel sensitivity to external stimuli that others cannot perceive, as in your blind man/sighted man analogy. Rather, spiritual experience is explained ultimately in the same way that all experience is explained, ie in terms of there being diversity in the way that minds process incoming information.

ekim

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2017, 11:54:00 AM »
Since Galileo at least, we have well understood the limitations of our natural senses.  So, we build machines to do the detecting for us now.

Isn't that primarily as a result of the sense of vision?  Would that have happened in the land of the blind?

SusanDoris

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Re: Faith, evidence and the Unconscious Mind
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2017, 12:00:17 PM »
Isn't that primarily as a result of the sense of vision?  Would that have happened in the land of the blind?
Since the 'land of the blind' is entirely hypothetical and there is no such thing, why do you think it helps at all in your argument?
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