Author Topic: Religion and Therapy  (Read 22191 times)

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64325
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2017, 05:04:37 PM »
You're the way you are, that's fine with me, I just think when you are familiar with a poster here on the forum, there shouldn't be a need to be so precise or any need to micro manage words, when knowing how the poster writes in general.

I don't write a thousand words when fewer can still put over a point, with a little thought on the part of the reader, whoever that might be, they can usually work out the meanings of the person trying to convey his or her thoughts and on top of that if you want perfect, don't look at me, even though I know it's difficult to believe it but I'm not.

I'm not you NS and therefore don't write in the same way as you and that's not going to change.

Please do whatever you like make any comment you like, whatever pleases you.
ippy

I just asked what you meant by something. What's the problem with that?

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2017, 05:20:25 PM »
I just asked what you meant by something. What's the problem with that?

Micro away N S, well if you really can't work out that origional post of mine it surprises me, it wasn't difficult and if you couldn't understand that what's the point of me writing more that you probably wont understand either?

It's as though if I don't write using your words and expressions you are unable to understand the simplist of things.

ippy


Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64325
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2017, 05:28:56 PM »
Micro away N S, well if you really can't work out that origional post of mine it surprises me, it wasn't difficult and if you couldn't understand that what's the point of me writing more that you probably wont understand either?

It's as though if I don't write using your words and expressions you are unable to understand the simplist of things.

ippy
I asked you to clarify one point. Why are you not willing to do so?

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2017, 10:26:21 PM »
I asked you to clarify one point. Why are you not willing to do so?

Why do you pretend you don't understand?

ippy

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2017, 11:32:51 PM »
I didn't understand your post either, Ippy.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2017, 01:13:52 AM »
I didn't understand your post either, Ippy.

I can only appologise if that is so but when anyone that is familiar with my past line of postings I really don't think it was that difficult to work out what I actually meant.

N S is a clever old stick but for me he overcomplicates things to the extent, well I lose interest and I really do think as I have said he is inclined to want everything more precisley worded out than I think is necessary; we're never likely to agree on that one.

Ippy
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 06:46:15 AM by ippy »

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2017, 01:22:18 AM »
If we are talking hearing voices most clergy would refer to a doctor to get it checked out.

No, we are talking about just one voice, God's voice.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2017, 07:47:03 AM »
No, we are talking about just one voice, God's voice.
I disagree, which may mean we are done here. There is certainly a distinct voice in cases of schizophrenia which is a kind of hallucination, then there is the epiphanic experience, then there is the voice of Dawkins which Frankie Boyle has likened to 'the voice of a woman'.

If you want to suggest that Christian belief in practice is mental aberration.....it's a free country but that does confirm what we know about antitheism....it is a thing which permits middle class atheists the opportunity to shout ''oi nutter!''....and feel righteous about it.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64325
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2017, 08:10:43 AM »
Why do you pretend you don't understand?

ippy
I am not pretending. And again I only asked about a specific point not the entire post. Excuse for what?

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2017, 11:05:50 AM »

If you want to suggest that Christian belief in practice is mental aberration....
Nope, so we are done with that argument.
No need to continue with your rabid anti-secularist shite which follows,

There is certainly a distinct voice in cases of schizophrenia which is a kind of hallucination,
How do you tell the difference?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2017, 02:09:30 PM »
Does the use of religion in therapy make sense? Does it matter what the religion is?



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38932954
No, for a start anyone with religion has a mental health problem to begin with. Introducing their religion into their therapy is compounding it .
However I have to admit that having religion is probably the only mental illness that's globally accepted and unchallenged as such.

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2017, 02:54:31 PM »
I think that if any professional therapist, or religious person who is supposed to be an authority and is acting as a therapist, introduces religious belief as an aid to a person's recovery, then that is quite unethical.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 04:11:36 PM »
How can it be more ethical to let them continue to suffer rather than discuss world views and (correct or incorrect) beliefs?

Of-course trying to recruit someone in a vulnerable state to any particular religion is wrong, but that is surely something different?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2017, 07:41:24 PM »
I think that if any professional therapist, or religious person who is supposed to be an authority and is acting as a therapist, introduces religious belief as an aid to a person's recovery, then that is quite unethical.

That's not what is being suggested. The idea is that trained therapists gain an understanding of faiths in order to use them as a recovery tool for religious people who struggle with completely secular methods. Frankly it's better that this training happens than it doesn't.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64325
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2017, 07:45:48 PM »
That's not what is being suggested. The idea is that trained therapists gain an understanding of faiths in order to use them as a recovery tool for religious people who struggle with completely secular methods. Frankly it's better that this training happens than it doesn't.
Dear Dawkins, surely not. Who cares what might work for the individual when we have the purity of unbelief to proselytise!

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2017, 08:10:39 PM »
Yes there are people in ministry without the necessary skills. Most trained clergy would though distinguish between a psychological problem and a religious problem.

There are very good people working in secular therapy that is non religious but I do worry for the people working in transactional therapies in a world where the secular modus is fast becoming confrontational and gladiatorial and tomes by contemporary philosophers are beginning to talk about economically redundant ''useless'' people.

A question which supercedes the religion and therapy question is how can any therapies based on building people up survive when the zeitgeist is that the devil or Darwin take the hindmost?
In the context in which this discussion is being carried out, what is a religious problem?

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2017, 08:19:23 PM »
Access to decent mental health therapy is already dependent on ability to pay.
You mean how expensive the drugs are?

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2017, 08:21:43 PM »
Doesn't seem a logical or sane way to set up a system where the people that will likely need it most would probably be least able to pay.
The robots will be doing it soon.  ;D

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2017, 08:27:08 PM »
I didn't understand your post either, Ippy.
That's me too.

Ippy, you've written a load of words about why you won't answer NS and yet in those number of words you could have explained yourself and saved us all this fuss.

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2017, 08:29:09 PM »
No, we are talking about just one voice, God's voice.

It can't be one voice in that case you have to include the devil as well.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2017, 01:07:38 AM »

It can't be one voice in that case you have to include the devil as well.
Eh?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2017, 07:05:07 PM »
Eh?
If we are talking about God then the other half has to be there as well, that is, the devil. God can't exist without his evil little brother!  ;D

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2017, 08:17:27 PM »
I think if the person is already of that faith and their church plays a non judgemental and supportive role, ok.

Otherwise I think
It could be very harmful.
I think that is correct - for people who are already religious, their faith can be a significant form of comfort and support to themselves and their friend/family (provided they are also believers). So it can certainly support therapy for believers, but I'd be very nervous about it being therapy.

But even where it is a supportive element it needs to be inclusive, so not acting to exclude the support of those who don't share the faith.

As an example a few years ago a colleague of my wife found out her husband had terminal cancer. She and he were members of a 'new' evangelical church. Through the time when he was dying and after they (and then she) turned inwards, refusing to interact with people they knew outside the church. It transpired that they had been told by their church that they shouldn't interact with non church members during the illness and bereavement as that would effectively 'dilute' the support they would receive from god. Effectively they were being told to shut themselves off from a wide group of supportive friends, family and colleagues.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2017, 08:36:40 PM »
That's not what is being suggested. The idea is that trained therapists gain an understanding of faiths in order to use them as a recovery tool for religious people who struggle with completely secular methods. Frankly it's better that this training happens than it doesn't.
But it is a fine line. How would the therapist know that the problem with non responsiveness to standard therapy is because religion hasn't been introduced? I think there is a big danger of the therapist turning into proselytist and that would be completely unethical.

The point is that is is very unlikely that a trained therapist would consider turning to religion unless they were themselves religious. And if you read the article the approach seems to be targeted at people who had 'stopped their religious practice' - so I would need to be absolutely convinced that the therapist is trying to reintroduce them to religion as a form of therapy rather than to try to get them to return to religion.

If you work through the link you can actually download the 'self help' booklet used. I find it rather disturbing as although the very first sections are practical and about the issues of mental health, depression and dealing with problems it rapidly shifts into being, in effect, a guide to Islam, pretty well detached from anything other than trying to ensure the patient is a good muslim.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Religion and Therapy
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2017, 08:56:48 PM »
But it is a fine line. How would the therapist know that the problem with non responsiveness to standard therapy is because religion hasn't been introduced? I think there is a big danger of the therapist turning into proselytist and that would be completely unethical.

The point is that is is very unlikely that a trained therapist would consider turning to religion unless they were themselves religious. And if you read the article the approach seems to be targeted at people who had 'stopped their religious practice' - so I would need to be absolutely convinced that the therapist is trying to reintroduce them to religion as a form of therapy rather than to try to get them to return to religion.

If you work through the link you can actually download the 'self help' booklet used. I find it rather disturbing as although the very first sections are practical and about the issues of mental health, depression and dealing with problems it rapidly shifts into being, in effect, a guide to Islam, pretty well detached from anything other than trying to ensure the patient is a good muslim.
Actually looking more into this I am finding it increasingly disturbing.

Looking through the 'therapists' manual there seems to be an overt bias in favour of driving even the non practicing (ex)muslim back to religion. And the language used is disturbingly biased. So for example:

'For clients using ‘negative religious coping’, who may have ambivalent or hostile views of God, the therapist could explain that positive ways of thinking about one’s relationship with God can help people overcome depression. Depending on whether the therapist thinks it would be useful, the Booklet could be introduced as an alternative way of drawing on religious beliefs and the therapist could explore the client’s response to reading the Booklet as an activation assignment.'

'The extent to which religious activities are suggested as a resource for dealing with depression will need to match the client’s level of religiosity to avoid inducing guilt at not being able to fulfill assignments. However, the absence of religious activity may be a consequence of feeling depressed and it should not be assumed that clients who do not mention religious activity would not be interested in these. Again, it will be useful to discuss how much clients would value building religious activities into their assignments and an achievable level of religious practice.'

So effectively if you aren't interested in religion, or are even hostile toward religion your therapist should foist religion onto you implying either that your depression is linked to your lack of religiosity or that having a particular level of religious practice is necessarily desirable.

Why on earth should someone not mentioning religion as being important to them be encouraged to achieve an 'achievable level of religious practice.' Why should anyone be expect to achieve a level of religious practice, unless that it entirely their own choice.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 09:07:15 PM by ProfessorDavey »