Folie à deux

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Folie à deux....is French for 'shared madness' or 'shared psychosis'.   That is, one person displays symptoms of psychosis that ae shared by another person or persons.

It could be that one person displays symptoms of psychosis which then induces another person or persons to also display similar symptoms (Folie imposée). Sometimes two or more people display similar psychosis simultaneously and influence one another (Folie simultanée).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5955095/folie-a-deux-when-two-people-go-insane-together

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Folie à deux is a term that originated in psychiatry......Psychiatry has replaced the term with "shared psychotic disorder," which is a much less pretty, but much more accurate, description of the condition.

Husbands and wives are one of the relationships commonly seen in shared psychotic disorder. It's also common in sibling relationships.

Three American sisters, none of whom had any history of abuse or mental difficulty, ended up starring in another spectacular instance of shared psychotic disorder - folie à trois, in this case. At first, the three sisters came together because the eldest needed help taking care of her children. The eldest lived with her husband, and the other two sisters moved into a house nearby, helping out whenever she needed them. Over time, the sisters became closer, and became more religious. Eventually, the youngest sister believed that there was some kind of problem with the Bible, because of the different spellings from version to version, and that she was chosen to make it right. After three days of continuous prayer, without sleep, the sisters decided that she needed to start her work in a specific house, which belonged to someone else. They traveled to the house and demanded to be let in to "their" room. When they were refused, the first tried to break into the house, and then they attacked the police officers who came to stop them. They were put in the same holding cell in the jail, where they continually prayed and sang, naked, and occasionally attacked the guards.

When they were separated, they gave up their disorders without any medication.

***********

Interesting how the mind functions. Could it be the microbiome that is responsible for this?

Any views?

Sriram

[Nearly Sane]

Any detail on why you think it could be responsible?

[Sriram]

Any detail on why you think it could be responsible?

Just a thought, since it is related to proximity.

[Nearly Sane]

Just a thought, since it is related to proximity.

it seems a stretch to me especially since people follow group think without physical proximity. Are you suggesting that it causes the similarity in thinking or the madness or both?

[Sriram]

it seems a stretch to me especially since people follow group think without physical proximity. Are you suggesting that it causes the similarity in thinking or the madness or both?

I was referring to psychosis.

[Nearly Sane]

I was referring to psychosis.

But then that's not, it seems to me, in anyway backed up by folie a deux or even trois. You have a possible hypothesis here, but the case cited doesn't seem to me to back up your idea.

[Sriram]

But then that's not, it seems to me, in anyway backed up by folie a deux or even trois. You have a possible hypothesis here, but the case cited doesn't seem to me to back up your idea.

Fine with me. I wonder what it is due to...though.

[Nearly Sane]

Fine with me. I wonder what it is due to...though.

Well that is a good question. In one sense, if you define microbiome widely enough, then it would be tautologous to say that it is part of it, since you could define all physical chemistry for an individual and all non physical input as part of it. I was taking your proposal to concentrate more on the physical aspects? Again we see people accepting strange ideas about things without  physical proximity so that makes it problematic to use physical proximity and some physical effect as the cause.

Further if we take it as physical, there are other issues, in that it would seem often with folie a un,deux, trois, quartre etc etc, that there are people not affected. That said the effects of ergot poisoning for example  may make such effects liable to influence others in the same state, but again that seems to me to define the mictobiome too widely.

But thanks for the thought because it is interesting

[Nearly Sane]

Reading the case in the OP I was reminded of James Tilly Matthews, which is thought of as the first documented case of paranoid schizophrenia. The problem that such cases as this present for any microbiome hypothesis that posits commonality is that it seems entirely specific. That doesn't rule out the hypothesis but the idea of folie a deux doesn't add weight to it, given that such shared psychoses do not need physical proximity.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tilly_Matthews

[Sriram]

Well that is a good question. In one sense, if you define microbiome widely enough, then it would be tautologous to say that it is part of it, since you could define all physical chemistry for an individual and all non physical input as part of it. I was taking your proposal to concentrate more on the physical aspects? Again we see people accepting strange ideas about things without  physical proximity so that makes it problematic to use physical proximity and some physical effect as the cause.

Further if we take it as physical, there are other issues, in that it would seem often with folie a un,deux, trois, quartre etc etc, that there are people not affected. That said the effects of ergot poisoning for example  may make such effects liable to influence others in the same state, but again that seems to me to define the mictobiome too widely.

But thanks for the thought because it is interesting

Well....the microbiome has been implicated in certain cases of depression and even schizophrenia.

The mind is obviously a composite of many factors and probably the microbiome is one of them.  In the cases of shared psychosis that I have given in the OP, proximity seems to have been one factor for the phenomenon. So...it is possible that bacteria do cause such sudden abnormalities. Almost like catching the same infection.

[Nearly Sane]

Well....the microbiome has been implicated in certain cases of depression and even schizophrenia.

The mind is obviously a composite of many factors and probably the microbiome is one of them.  In the cases of shared psychosis that I have given in the OP, proximity seems to have been one factor for the phenomenon. So...it is possible that bacteria do cause such sudden abnormalities. Almost like catching the same infection.

Mmm, (a) see my follow up post, but (b) it's obviously clear that ideas can be 'transmitted' remotely, and (c) you have no evidence that the microbiome generates beliefs. Again while the idea is interesting, the facts are not clear from this.  You seem to be going down a route which looks on 'memetics' as part of the microbiome but that to me is an unwarranted redefinition, as well as a begging the question on the validity of memetics.

[Sriram]

Mmm, (a) see my follow up post, but (b) it's obviously clear that ideas can be 'transmitted' remotely, and (c) you have no evidence that the microbiome generates beliefs. Again while the idea is interesting, the facts are not clear from this.  You seem to be going down a route which looks on 'memetics' as part of the microbiome but that to me is an unwarranted redefinition, as well as a begging the question on the validity of memetics.

I am talking abut bacteria influencing and triggering abnormal mental behavior...similar to an infection. I am not (yet) suggesting that beliefs and thoughts are  composed (even partly) of the microbiome.

I understand how memes get generated and replicated through living in a belief system, teachings, training etc. All families, parent- children, close religious communities  are examples.  But there is rarely such intense shared beliefs that can actually be termed as psychosis.

So...memes do not explain shared psychosis. In my view this  is a different phenomenon and cannot be treated as a normal meme transfer and replication.   

More tomorrow. G'night!

[Nearly Sane]

I am talking abut bacteria influencing and triggering abnormal mental behavior...similar to an infection. I am not (yet) suggesting that beliefs and thoughts are  composed (even partly) of the microbiome.

I understand how memes get generated and replicated through living in a belief system, teachings, training etc. All families, parent- children, close religious communities  are examples.  But there is rarely such intense shared beliefs that can actually be termed as psychosis.

So...memes do not explain shared psychosis. In my view this  is a different phenomenon and cannot be treated as a normal meme transfer and replication.   

More tomorrow. G'night!

the problem though, surely, is that the behaviour here is the beliefs
. You cannot get to behaviour without to the beliefs, and hence your hypothesis cannot explain the behaviour.

Have a good sleep

[Sriram]

the problem though, surely, is that the behaviour here is the beliefs
. You cannot get to behaviour without to the beliefs, and hence your hypothesis cannot explain the behaviour.

Have a good sleep

I think we need to distinguish between stable long term beliefs (memes) and sudden onset beliefs that are more like hallucinations or even perhaps hypnotic in nature. It is these sudden short term 'beliefs' that seem to be seen in this kind of shared psychosis. They may not really be memes but some kind of a mental aberration resulting in madness. 

That is why I called it an infection. 

[Nearly Sane]

I think we need to distinguish between stable long term beliefs (memes) and sudden onset beliefs that are more like hallucinations or even perhaps hypnotic in nature. It is these sudden short term 'beliefs' that seem to be seen in this kind of shared psychosis. They may not really be memes but some kind of a mental aberration resulting in madness. 

That is why I called it an infection.

Calling something stable and long term is a value judgement that is not appropriate in determining how this might work scientifically. You need to avoid this type of approach as it brings in your own personal beliefs.

[Sriram]

Calling something stable and long term is a value judgement that is not appropriate in determining how this might work scientifically. You need to avoid this type of approach as it brings in your own personal beliefs.

I don't know what you are talking about, NS. You suddenly go off at a tangent as always. Anyways....I have given my views.

Thanks for your views. Cheers.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't know what you are talking about, NS. You suddenly go off at a tangent as always. Anyways....I have given my views.

Thanks for your views. Cheers.

It's not a tangent. You are putting forward a hypothesis of the micro biome being the 'cause' of some beliefs. To exclude it being the cause of certain beliefs that you make a value judgement on is not scientific and  invalidates your approach.

[Gordon]

I think we need to distinguish between stable long term beliefs (memes) and sudden onset beliefs that are more like hallucinations or even perhaps hypnotic in nature. It is these sudden short term 'beliefs' that seem to be seen in this kind of shared psychosis. They may not really be memes but some kind of a mental aberration resulting in madness. 

That is why I called it an infection.

I like the idea of beliefs being 'infectious' in the biological sense since we could develop vaccines: it would be too late for the chronic cases but if we vaccinate all children when they start school we could eliminate all manner of religions irrational belief systems in a generation or three. 

[Sriram]

I like the idea of beliefs being 'infectious' in the biological sense since we could develop vaccines: it would be too late for the chronic cases but if we vaccinate all children when they start school we could eliminate all manner of religions irrational belief systems in a generation or three. 

Very funny Gordon!   

But you must realize that bacteria can cause/aggravate  depression and schizophrenia. Just google for it.

Our body and mind are connected and any problems in one can cause problems in the other. Sudden hormonal surges or dips can cause mental disturbances.

So..the idea of bacterial infections or changes in the microbiome causing psychotic disturbances is actually not new at all.

http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/the-role-of-infections-in-mental-illness/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/infected-with-insanity/

The field of psychiatry  will be changing dramatically in the near future. Instead of long sessions on the couch, people may have to take antibiotics instead.

[Gordon]

Very funny Gordon!   

But you must realize that bacteria can cause/aggravate  depression and schizophrenia. Just google for it.

Our body and mind are connected and any problems in one can cause problems in the other. Sudden hormonal surges or dips can cause mental disturbances.

So..the idea of bacterial infections or changes in the microbiome causing psychotic disturbances is actually not new at all.

http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/the-role-of-infections-in-mental-illness/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/infected-with-insanity/

The field of psychiatry  will be changing dramatically in the near future. Instead of long sessions on the couch, people may have to take antibiotics instead.

Neither of your links is helpful.

The first involves a paper submitted by the 'THE RESEARCH INSTITUTE FOR INFECTIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS ', with the note that it is no longer 'open' and it appears on a web-site supporting a drug-free approach to mental illness. We are given no information about the qualification of the author, a Frank Strick, and I note the sentence at the bottom reading 'This article may be reprinted by anyone if the RIIMI clinic contact info is listed'. In addition, and while it mentions some studies (including some apparently dating from over 50 years ago) is contains no reference list. This article isn't what you'd expect to see in a professional peer-reviewed journal (speaking as someone who has published in a peer-reviewed medical journal on the subject of mental health). In short this site does not represent the professional delivery of psychiatry services. Your second link is behind a pay-wall.

I should note, having spent 8 years of my NHS career working in psychiatry, since my Ph.D thesis was specifically on the subject of schizophrenia, and since Mrs G (a Community Psychiatric Nurse) is still working in this area and specifically with people with a diagnosis of schizophrenia, I think I can confidently say that your understanding of psychiatry is just plain wrong, which isn't surprising if you accept articles like this as being authoritative.   

[Sriram]

Gordon,

Are you by any chance saying that bacteria and the microbiome are not linked to mental illnesses?

[Gordon]

Gordon,

Are you by any chance saying that bacteria and the microbiome are not linked to mental illnesses?

No, but the link you posted and that I commented on earlier is of no value so I'm not clear on what credible clinical evidence there is in support of your contention. Feel free though to offer something on this from a peer-reviewed journal authored by professional practitioners in the field.

Even so, it is the case that the current clinical treatment of schizophrenia does not involve the routine prescription of antibiotics.

 

 

[Sriram]

No, but the link you posted and that I commented on earlier is of no value so I'm not clear on what credible clinical evidence there is in support of your contention. Feel free though to offer something on this from a peer-reviewed journal authored by professional practitioners in the field.

Even so, it is the case that the current clinical treatment of schizophrenia does not involve the routine prescription of antibiotics.

Is that a 'no' or a 'yes'. You're saying both.

As for information...just google for it.  And I thought Scientific American is a reputed journal.

Try these anyway.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150728110734.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161207093019.htm

If being a professional in psychiatry you are not aware of recent findings on the link between bacteria and mental illness.....no one can help you!

G'night!

[Gordon]

Is that a 'no' or a 'yes'. You're saying both.

As for information...just google for it.  And I thought Scientific American is a reputed journal.

Try these anyway.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150728110734.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161207093019.htm

If being a professional in psychiatry you are not aware of recent findings on the link between bacteria and mental illness.....no one can help you!

G'night!

Well now - being retired I'm possibly less up to date than I once was. Even so, these articles are summaries of research and I can't see that they refer to psychosis (such as schizophrenia). 

[Sriram]

Thought I'll look in before hitting the bed.

http://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/schizophrenia-and-psychoses/microbes-bacteria-viruses-immune-system-schizophrenia/article/434604/

Now...don't tell me this is not good enough for you!     If so...google on your own pl.

G'night!