F**k

[Rhiannon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-39082467

I found the last paragraph interesting. Do *most* people really find lots of swear words disconcerting? In this day and age?

[Nearly Sane]

Depends. Context is hugely important.  Not sure what a blanket statement of 'Too many swear words' means.

[Rhiannon]

No. I'd find repeated f words weird in the Radio Times, not weird in a modern novel. I welcome seeing swear words in a newspaper because I don't feel patronised like I do by the asterisks. But as you say, what is 'too many'? And really, where were they in the article anyway?

And why is fuck more offensive than shit?

[Rhiannon]

This reminds me of the song 'Ps F**k You' by the Anchoress. That's how it appears on the album listing. She doesn't actually sing the asterisks.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=mJ58dUh4SkM

[Sriram]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-39082467

I found the last paragraph interesting. Do *most* people really find lots of swear words disconcerting? In this day and age?

What do you mean 'this day and age'?!   You think swear words are somehow progressive and liberal or something?!  What is special about this day and age that we should use such words or find such words non offensive?

[Nearly Sane]

I am still puzzled by the idea that nigger isn't a swear word because it somehow isn't about a taboo subject. Surely it's only offensive because it is seen as taboo?  And I think in many ways nigger is now taken over from cunt as more offensive.

I agree that the asterisks are disturbing, especially as sometimes it isn't always clear what the word is.

Might listen in to the show because I am wondering about the impact of dialect, and culture n this. I was somewhat bemused to find that shit was seen as more offensive in some parts of England when I first used the Scottish word shite which is somehow mellower up here. The Irish fecking gets a lot wider use than fucking.  Joss Whedon got away with using wanker in Buffy the Vampire Slayer when being said by notionally British characters.

Then you have the context and way of saying it affecting the meaning. I can say cunt in a way that expresses hatred or liking for the person I use it of.


Further, we have the presence of words that are either strange portmanteau words such as cockwomble, which I am not sure what you use to determine if it is a swearing word, and words that sound 'sweary' like flangebucket, but surely can't he swear words?

[Rhiannon]

What do you mean 'this day and age'?!   You think swear words are somehow progressive and liberal or something?!  What is special about this day and age that we should use such words or find such words non offensive?

No, I mean that surely with all the shit going on in the world we should grow up and get a grip. We don't cover piano legs because they look like women's' ankles any more. As NS says, there are incredibly offensive words that aren't regarded as swear words.

[Rhiannon]

I hate the fact that cunt is seen to be the most offensive thing you can call someone. Are female genitalia so disgusting?

[Nearly Sane]

I think the crisp phobia analogy in the article doesn't quite work. Swearing is often embedded on people's way of speaking rather than being a subject. If I joined a rugby club, and said 'Sorry I have swearaphobia, I think it would be eectong a bit much for nobody to swear.

[Nearly Sane]

I hate the fact that cunt is seen to be the most offensive thing you can call someone. Are female genitalia so disgusting?

it's more based around the whole taboo thing about sex and effluvia. Also I am not sure that it is seen as the most offensive because everywhere, or that it always has been seen that way here. If it had been I doubt Shakespeare would have talked of country matters in Hamlet.

There's also the weird thing that some words for make and female genitalia are worse than others even though they refer to the same thing. Language is fascinatingly malleable.

[Nearly Sane]

What do you mean 'this day and age'?!   You think swear words are somehow progressive and liberal or something?!  What is special about this day and age that we should use such words or find such words non offensive?

Surely the question is more that swearing is more widespread than it was at sometimes past (note I think the idea that it ever wasn't widespread is questionable), and therefore the use of the 'most people' in the article might be incorrect.

again, I think context is important here. There are times when I might he disconcerted such as if I was taking my mother to tea, and times I would not such as watching a Question Time with any set of my political friends.

[Gordon]

Context is important, as is intent. Where these words aren't out of context in respect of the situation and aren't intended to insult in a hurtful manner then swearing is surely a matter of personal taste. I remember one of our kids repeating 'fuck' when they were pre-school - they had no idea of meaning, and in one sense it was funny, but then there was the concern they'd repeat it when attending nursery or sitting on granny's knee.

This clip from Father Ted is priceless: deliberately not swearing, but we know exactly what they mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz-Kb1wvy8s

[Nearly Sane]

I suspect on the radio programme there will be reference to George Carlin and his 7 words routine. Link below



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMkNsMMvrqk

[floo]

If I am very angry I might use an expletive in my own home, but never the 'f' word. I can't remember my husband ever swearing in all the time I have known him.

[Aruntraveller]

What do you mean 'this day and age'?!   You think swear words are somehow progressive and liberal or something?!  What is special about this day and age that we should use such words or find such words non offensive?

I don't know whether they are progressive or liberal (although that choice of descriptors speaks volumes for your mindset) but swearing is useful and possibly not an indicator of all things wrong with a person:

http://malingual.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/linguistic-myth-2-swearing-shows-lack.html

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Some people have this idea that the 21st Century has to be a certain way...people should have certain set of values, they should speak in certain ways, dress in certain ways, think in certain ways ...and so on.  We often hear.... 'This is the 21st century for God's sake'!!!

Well....so what?!

Ideas, lifestyles, values etc. don't move from one set to another set in a straight line...and then keep going on and on into some ultra liberal, super liberal, hyper liberal world from which there is no return.....

Rather, they move in cycles. They evolve and develop by drawing from one another.  So...a day will come when using such words and expressions in public will once again be frowned upon like in the  'old times'.   There are many societies where this is true even today.

So...nothing  strange about such expressions being found offensive by some people. These people belong to the 21 st century too!

I am one of them, in fact! 

[Stranger]

I hate the fact that cunt is seen to be the most offensive thing you can call someone. Are female genitalia so disgusting?

Deeply puzzling. Reminds me though - there was a whole episode of Balderdash and Piffle (BBC Two) devoted to the word (well Germaine Greer's view of the word, anyway)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDJutaFuVD0

[Nearly Sane]

Hi everyone,

Some people have this idea that the 21st Century has to be a certain way...people should have certain set of values, they should speak in certain ways, dress in certain ways, think in certain ways ...and so on.  We often hear.... 'This is the 21st century for God's sake'!!!

Mmm I think most people have opinions that people should behave in certain ways and always have done. I'm not sure if anyone says people should only do things one way simply because it's the way we currently think now, and were anyone to do so I would suggest that that is a bad reason for doing that. Just as I would if someone were to suggest because something had been thought for a long time that it was therefore right.

Well....so what?!

Ideas, lifestyles, values etc. don't move from one set to another set in a straight line...and then keep going on and on into some ultra liberal, super liberal, hyper liberal world from which there is no return.....

Again, I'm not sure I have seen any such claims. That said do I think some things are better in my opinion than at some times in the past, yes, and do I think that on balance things might be described as better as ideas have changed overtime, yes. But your above paragraph  would be a caricature of that position.

Rather, they move in cycles. They evolve and develop by drawing from one another.  So...a day will come when using such words and expressions in public will once again be frowned upon like in the  'old times'.   There are many societies where this is true even today.

Mmm, I think the claim that things move in ''cycles"  is too specific and needs to be evidenced rather than asserted. I absolutely agree that simple linear progression is evidently wrong, by as you point out the fact that societies are not all in agreement but that's not showing  cycles as such.  Maybe there will come a day when such words are frowned on again but I don't see you have provided evidence for that prediction.

Further, as already raised in the thread, the words that are seen as offensive seem to change over time not in a straight set of cycles but as values change. Hence the mention in both the article and the thread of the word nigger and the change in the perception of a word that was once commonplace. Indeed the people who generally find that most offensive are liberals, and the people that might currently be argued as seeking to shut down offensive language are liberals. The concept of what is offensive though is different. Note that doesn't mean that things change in cycles just that they change.

So...nothing  strange about such expressions being found offensive by some people. These people belong to the 21 st century too!

I am one of them, in fact! 

I don't think that it is strange, nor have I seen anyone here suggest it, rather the initial comment on 'this day and age' was in relation to the specific claim in the article that 'most people would be disconcerted'. That's a something that will be a matter of fact and should it be that mist people would not be then it would be wrong. Arguing against someone's perception of the commonality of public opinion is not saying that someone is wrong to hold a different opinion from what is the common one.

[Nearly Sane]

Following on from a couple of things already said, I hope that the programme looks at the words we now find offensive and are much more likely to object to such as nigger and the various similar words (wog, dago, spic etc), faggot and its ilk, and spastic and similar (retard etc).


These are part of what some might thunder as 'political correctness gone mad!!!!'  and are generally terms that hat might be looked on as the 'left' or 'liberals' have argued against. Indeed much of the pursuit of the liberalising of speech comes from sections of the 'right' who want to get the snowflakes out of their safe spaces and stop no platforming. That there are certain other sections of the right that would want blasphemy laws for things such as zounds is just part of the reason why such terms as liberal in this context are not really useful.

[Rhiannon]

Deeply puzzling. Reminds me though - there was a whole episode of Balderdash and Piffle (BBC Two) devoted to the word (well Germaine Greer's view of the word, anyway)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDJutaFuVD0

Yes, I saw this too. I rather like the word cunt, something quite earthy and powerful about it. If others choose to turn it into the worst word ever that is their problem, not mine.

Someone once called me a cunt on this forum. Can't say it bothered me but it did other people.

[Rhiannon]

Following on from a couple of things already said, I hope that the programme looks at the words we now find offensive and are much more likely to object to such as nigger and the various similar words (wog, dago, spic etc), faggot and its ilk, and spastic and similar (retard etc).


These are part of what some might thunder as 'political correctness gone mad!!!!'  and are generally terms that hat might be looked on as the 'left' or 'liberals' have argued against. Indeed much of the pursuit of the liberalising of speech comes from sections of the 'right' who want to get the snowflakes out of their safe spaces and stop no platforming. That there are certain other sections of the right that would want blasphemy laws for things such as zounds is just part of the reason why such terms as liberal in this context are not really useful.

There are words that I can never use , have never used and make me shudder when I hear or see them in your above post.

(not that your use of them here does.)

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I saw this too. I rather like the word cunt, something quite earthy and powerful about it. If others choose to turn it into the worst word ever that is their problem, not mine.

Someone once called me a cunt on this forum. Can't say it bothered me but it did other people.

I remember having various conversations with women where the whole idea of reclaiming the female genitalia with new terns but you general end up with twee stuff like lady garden. Alternatively I was once staying with one of friends was both a sterling swearer and committed to being honest about sex with her kids, and her 3 year old daughter was in the not liking clothes stage, appeared wearing inky her pants on her head next to me as I lay in bed, pointed and said vulva which I had to nod and agree with.

[Nearly Sane]

One of the things that has always struck me is that while we generally see words for the female genitalia as more shocking and therefore either with a connotation of either uglier or more powerful dependent in your view, the words for male genitalua tend to be more mocking of its uselessness e g. Knob, dick, prick etc.

[Nearly Sane]

There are words that I can never use , have never used and make me shudder when I hear or see them in your above post.

(not that your use of them here does.)

It's odd, of course, that some of these words such as nigger and faggot for example, are reclaimed by those to whom they are applied as a statement of power. And then yet we have seen in recent tines a use of the word gay in a way that subverts its use as an acceptable label. Language is very strange.

[wigginhall]

One of the things that has always struck me is that while we generally see words for the female genitalia as more shocking and therefore either with a connotation of either uglier or more powerful dependent in your view, the words for male genitalua tend to be more mocking of its uselessness e g. Knob, dick, prick etc.

There is a view that women are seen as more powerful, and thus cunts are actually feared by men, as life-bearers, and of course, something they desire seriously.    For the life of me, I can't recall who says this, except Karen Horney, who is not very current.   There is also breast envy and womb envy, which may be a factor.

Now I've remembered that some of Freud's followers began to report this, and he was not pleased, as he had put forward the idea of phallic superiority.    But he should have realized that the unconscious often inverts things anyway.