India

[ippy]

Enlightenment is ...knowing that the world is too complex to be pinned down by some science guys. That is what Indians of all generations and all levels of education have realized. 

We all came out of Africa and are basicly the same, it's the cultures that differ, none of us can put aside the onslaught of knowledge or should want to do so; what logical/rational reasons account for the large decline in superstitious beliefs in Europe and other than cultural reasons how is the, more loosly termed, eastern world going to avoid these benafits of western  rationale.

It's one world Sriram and we're all in it together, don't forget depending on how far back you go we're all related to each other.

ippy

[Sriram]

We all came out of Africa and are basicly the same, it's the cultures that differ, none of us can put aside the onslaught of knowledge or should want to do so; what logical/rational reasons account for the large decline in superstitious beliefs in Europe and other than cultural reasons how is the, more loosly termed, eastern world going to avoid these benafits of western  rationale.

It's one world Sriram and we're all in it together, don't forget depending on how far back you go we're all related to each other.

ippy

Yes...I agree.  But life, culture and civilization spread around and evolve in funny unpredictable ways. 

In earlier times, invasions largely determined cultural movement and development. Today global travel and communication determine cultural movement and evolution.

Rational thinking has developed in one place and spirituality has developed in another. They both are now meeting and a new cultural mix is inevitable. It is not however necessary that the spiritual aspect will be eradicated and the rational one will prevail. Maybe it will be the other way around...or maybe different types of hybrids will arise.

[Bubbles]

I haven't been to India, but one day I'd like to visit.
Festival of colour sounds a lot of fun, if a bit messy 


http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/03/when-is-holi-festival-of-colours-hindu-festival-is-all-about-celebrating-spring-6486326/

[ippy]

Yes...I agree.  But life, culture and civilization spread around and evolve in funny unpredictable ways. 

In earlier times, invasions largely determined cultural movement and development. Today global travel and communication determine cultural movement and evolution.

Rational thinking has developed in one place and spirituality has developed in another. They both are now meeting and a new cultural mix is inevitable. It is not however necessary that the spiritual aspect will be eradicated and the rational one will prevail. Maybe it will be the other way around...or maybe different types of hybrids will arise.

"Rational thinking has developed in one place and spirituality has developed in another. They both are now meeting and a new cultural mix is inevitable. It is not however necessary that the spiritual aspect will be eradicated and the rational one will prevail. Maybe it will be the other way around...or maybe different types of hybrids will arise".

Their's no reason why you shouldn't believe that, the only problem with that lot is the lack of evidence or even any way of showing that there's any kind of logical/rational path way that would support this kind of belief; unless, of course, perhaps you can find a way demonstrating as much.

How does anyone eradicate the non existent? Surly it's just not there, non existent?

Beethoven's third piano concerto moves me every time I hear it, I turned the radio on yesterday guess what it was playing, spiritual, Sriram, tell me, why do I need to attribute this rather pleasant feeling to some obscure third party, hopefully you can supply some kind of supportable rationale that would make me change my mind?

By the way thinking is just that, thinking is thinking, I'm not referring to your good self but there are large swathes of your population that for various reasons haven't had the advantage of a good basic education and this would be inclined to disadvantage them so no small wonder they still hold these unsupportable beliefs.

As for rational thinking Vs spirituality by your understanding of that word, I would say rational trumps your form of spirituality every time, due to the fact you are unable to support your version with any verifiable evidence of any kind; "I believe because I believe" doesn't say a lot for your line of thought Sriram.

ippy

[Sriram]

You are treating spirituality as wrong, as a false belief....and rational thinking as the only way to reality.  I am treating spirituality and rational thinking as routes to two different realities that need to be eventually bridged.

So...we are not going to agree.

[Stranger]

You are treating spirituality as wrong, as a false belief....and rational thinking as the only way to reality.  I am treating spirituality and rational thinking as routes to two different realities that need to be eventually bridged.

There is a way in which rational thinking can test its conclusions (evidence and logic) - how can "spirituality" test its conclusions? Those who claim spiritual insight don't actually agree with one another, so how do we tell who is right...?

[ippy]

You are treating spirituality as wrong, as a false belief....and rational thinking as the only way to reality.  I am treating spirituality and rational thinking as routes to two different realities that need to be eventually bridged.

So...we are not going to agree.

Somewhere else we don't agree, there is nothing around to make me consider anything god like, as described by people like yourself, or your kind of spiritual exists and I'm not claiming knowledge I have no way knowing or being able to verify as true knowledge, if you can sway me with something solid that would settle your case for once and all, I'll join you, if you wish to persuade people like myself you could say you've got a long job in front of you.

I don't see spirituality as wrong or as a false belief, they're just something, an idea obviously conjured up by mankind at some stage or another and nothing more than that, if you want to believe in these sorts of ideas, well that's your choice, as long as you don't to inflict these beliefs on me and mine via laws or special privilege for believers, please fill your boots to your hearts content, that's what secularism's all about Sriram. 

ippy     

[Sriram]

Somewhere else we don't agree, there is nothing around to make me consider anything god like, as described by people like yourself, or your kind of spiritual exists and I'm not claiming knowledge I have no way knowing or being able to verify as true knowledge, if you can sway me with something solid that would settle your case for once and all, I'll join you, if you wish to persuade people like myself you could say you've got a long job in front of you.

I don't see spirituality as wrong or as a false belief, they're just something, an idea obviously conjured up by mankind at some stage or another and nothing more than that, if you want to believe in these sorts of ideas, well that's your choice, as long as you don't to inflict these beliefs on me and mine via laws or special privilege for believers, please fill your boots to your hearts content, that's what secularism's all about Sriram. 

ippy   

ippy...It doesn't matter if you don't believe.    That is just your path of development.  You will also get there like everyone else. Maybe in your next birth you will be a Yogi living in the Himalayas...you never know! 

Making someone understand is very difficult. Taking the simple instance of the moon landing deniers. How can you possibly convince them that people have actually landed on the moon? Anything you argue or show them could be mocked and dismissed. That is the way their mind is programmed and that will not change easily.

Similarly, if someone does not believe that there is anything beyond the mundane realities of the body, earth and so on, there is nothing anyone can do to convince them that there is something.  All philosophy and detailed spiritual teachings are for those who accept them in the first place.

[ippy]

ippy...It doesn't matter if you don't believe.    That is just your path of development.  You will also get there like everyone else. Maybe in your next birth you will be a Yogi living in the Himalayas...you never know! 

Making someone understand is very difficult. Taking the simple instance of the moon landing deniers. How can you possibly convince them that people have actually landed on the moon? Anything you argue or show them could be mocked and dismissed. That is the way their mind is programmed and that will not change easily.

Similarly, if someone does not believe that there is anything beyond the mundane realities of the body, earth and so on, there is nothing anyone can do to convince them that there is something.  All philosophy and detailed spiritual teachings are for those who accept them in the first place.

"All philosophy and detailed spiritual teachings are for those who accept them in the first place".

Thank goodness I'm not that gullible!
====
It doesn't matter if you don't believe.    That is just your path of development.  You will also get there like everyone else. Maybe in your next birth you will be a Yogi living in the Himalayas...you never know! 

"I'm not that simple minded", I don't believe in unicorns either for the same reason!
====
"Making someone understand is very difficult".

Hardly surprising, the stuff you're coming out with!
====
"Maybe in your next birth you will be a Yogi living in the Himalayas...you never know"! 

Perhaps if you take a long rest Sriram it might help!

ippy

[Robbie]

Part of the beauty of India is its variety of spirituality.n it is truly wondrous. India would be a far poorer place without it, it surprises me that anyone wants it to fade away when it is integral to the character of the place. Can't imagine a non=spiritual India.

In this country those who come from or parents come from Indian subcontinent celebrate festivals and occasions in spectacular colourful ways which brighten up our lives. Let that not fade. Especially in drab areas it spreads beauty and joy of which we have a dearth.

[Nearly Sane]

Worried about detailing a thread but a quick definition of what people mean by spirituality would be useful by those using the term?

[ippy]

Worried about detailing a thread but a quick definition of what people mean by spirituality would be useful by those using the term?

Why don't you do so then N S, I'd have thought you're the right man for the job.

ippy

[Robbie]

Worried about detailing a thread but a quick definition of what people mean by spirituality would be useful by those using the term?

googled, couldn't have put it better myself:

"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all."

[Nearly Sane]

googled, couldn't have put it better myself:

"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all."

Other than being recognisable as an English sentence, the above makes as much sense as 'Green ideas sleep furiously'

[Robbie]

It makes sense to me Nearly. (I don't mean it nearly makes sense to me. )
There's more to it of course. Here's the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

You say how you would describe spirituality.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Other than being recognisable as an English sentence, the above makes as much sense as 'Green ideas sleep furiously'

Or "Why is a mouse when it spins?"

(Look, I can't help that I was born when I was)

[Robbie]

 

Until I looked at it again i was remembering Nearlysane's comment as something to do with green sheep.

[Nearly Sane]

It makes sense to me Nearly. (I don't mean it nearly makes sense to me. )
There's more to it of course. Here's the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

You say how you would describe spirituality.

Why would I describe a term that I don't understand? That it makes sense to you is entirely useless . I could write 'huhggft' means that feeling when tree hunts from sloppy jumps, and say it makes sense to me!

[Robbie]

I get what you mean.

[Aruntraveller]

"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all."

Well this is wrong.

It is not universal. I do not, and have not ever had, a sense of being connected to something bigger than ourselves. Sure I have tried to make sense out of our reason for being here (no conclusion yet - and I doubt I will ever reach one, because in essence I strongly suspect there is no reason) - but I have never made the connection to the idea of something bigger either in the sense of a God/s, or through some kind of spiritual garbage connected to crystals or dolphins or somatic practices or take your pick of any number of strange practices that humans think are spiritual.

Therefore the definition is incorrect as it clearly does not touch us all.

[Rhiannon]

googled, couldn't have put it better myself:

"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all."

Not for me it doesn't.

[Rhiannon]

I've oft repeated on here what spirituality means to me but here goes:

It's the stuff we need to do to look after and nourish ourselves that goes beyond our material, physical needs. It's taking care of our 'spirit' or 'self' or whatever you want to call it, the thing made up of thoughts, memories and feelings that might just be the product of biological processes but that appreciates and creates art, music, good food, love, nature, tattoos etc etc etc.