Author Topic: Who is Doing the Forgiving  (Read 7461 times)

newnature

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Who is Doing the Forgiving
« on: March 02, 2017, 02:46:21 PM »
Who in the world are those involved in religion asking for forgiveness? From God! Therefore the assumption is, God’s not reconciled when they sin. In their mind they are separating themselves from God by their sin. Justification...Redemption...Propitiation...Remission...and Forbearance...all terms God wants people to acknowledge, to become familiar with, and to come to fully appreciate. Never make the mistake of thinking that these terms all mean the same thing. They do not. Each one has a distinct meaning all its own. Oftentimes, people will look at these terms and sort of lump them all together under a heading called forgiveness. 


To many people are trying to Christianize the flesh. One should never drive the train from emotions, but there are denominations living in the caboose, driving the train from the emotion standpoint, not living it from the doctrinal standpoint. But think about this: Is forgiveness the same thing as being justified or having someone else’s righteousness freely attributed to their account? They are not one and the same. The human race’s sins have all been forgiven, but forgiveness alone does not mean the person having forgiveness is as perfectly and totally righteous as the one who is doing the forgiving.
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

floo

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2017, 03:48:06 PM »
Who in the world are those involved in religion asking for forgiveness? From God! Therefore the assumption is, God’s not reconciled when they sin. In their mind they are separating themselves from God by their sin. Justification...Redemption...Propitiation...Remission...and Forbearance...all terms God wants people to acknowledge, to become familiar with, and to come to fully appreciate. Never make the mistake of thinking that these terms all mean the same thing. They do not. Each one has a distinct meaning all its own. Oftentimes, people will look at these terms and sort of lump them all together under a heading called forgiveness. 


To many people are trying to Christianize the flesh. One should never drive the train from emotions, but there are denominations living in the caboose, driving the train from the emotion standpoint, not living it from the doctrinal standpoint. But think about this: Is forgiveness the same thing as being justified or having someone else’s righteousness freely attributed to their account? They are not one and the same. The human race’s sins have all been forgiven, but forgiveness alone does not mean the person having forgiveness is as perfectly and totally righteous as the one who is doing the forgiving.

God, if it exists, should be asking forgiveness from humans if the actions attributed to it in the Bible are true! >:(

Robbie

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2017, 03:52:22 PM »
Newnature, I found your opening post quite confusing despite reading twice. (No I'm not thick.)
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floo

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2017, 03:59:15 PM »
Newnature, I found your opening post quite confusing despite reading twice. (No I'm not thick.)

I agree, it isn't well expressed.

newnature

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2017, 04:20:13 PM »
God, if it exists, should be asking forgiveness from humans if the actions attributed to it in the Bible are true! >:(

Jesus has purchased the entire human race out from the marketplace of sin’s ability to condemn the sinner ever again. Do you see why sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice in this age of grace? It’s no longer the issue in the judicial mind of God who received the payment. In Romans 3:25-26 we find that our magnificent redemption demanded a monumental price. The cost...was the death...and the shed blood...of God’s only begotten son Jesus, (the second Adam - Genesis 3:15). So justification, believing in what Jesus accomplished is a requirement in order to be justified or declared righteous. Who was it that purchased you, the sinner, out of the market place of sin through his shed blood? Did you pay the price to purchase you out of this issue called sins, or did Jesus pay the price? Look at the receipt shown in 1 Timothy 2:6. 


Was God only partially satisfied with the payment Jesus made for sins? Or was God fully satisfied where the payment made by his son for the sins of the world are concerned? When you think of Propitiation, think of payment satisfaction, because propitiation means just that, full satisfaction. Not only did Jesus cry out: “It is finished” from the tree of crucifixion, meaning his death for sins, his payment for sins was being brought to a conclusion, he could make that statement because he had fully accomplished what he had set out to do. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the world Jesus redeemed will accept the Redeemer, or the truth of their redemption for that matter so they can be placed into the Savior, Heaven worthy, at that point. The key word expression in connection with Paul’s teaching on Redemption: It would be delivered through ransom; deliverance through a ransom price, 1 Timothy 2:6.
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

newnature

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2017, 04:22:35 PM »
I agree, it isn't well expressed.

Flesh wants to say if I broke it I can fix it. God’s not asking us to turn from anything to be saved. God’s asking us to believe Jesus accomplished salvation for us and we’re simply to believe it. Jesus did it all, there’s nothing left for us to do. God did all the giving. We do only all the receiving.
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

Enki

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2017, 04:24:20 PM »
Wouldn't it have been a good idea to put your OP in the 'Faith Sharing' section where other Christians could comment on it in a shared atmosphere perhaps?  After all it seems rather more directed towards other Christians, rather than posters such as me who haven't any belief in any such God, and consequentially the idea of your God's supposed forgiveness is an idea bereft of any significance in a personal sense. Just a thought!
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newnature

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2017, 04:27:39 PM »
Wouldn't it have been a good idea to put your OP in the 'Faith Sharing' section where other Christians could comment on it in a shared atmosphere perhaps?  After all it seems rather more directed towards other Christians, rather than posters such as me who haven't any belief in any such God, and consequentially the idea of your God's supposed forgiveness is an idea bereft of any significance in a personal sense. Just a thought!

Will people accept what Jesus accomplished or will people reject it? God purchased the human race out of sins dominion never to be returned to the market place of sin again. God effectively canceled Satan’s ownership of all the human race. Satan can lay claim to no person based on their sinfulness. Does that mean the entire world is saved? No. A person has to have an individual change of status and that take place when they accept what the son did for them. Throughout the ages, God in his sovereignty, has chosen to recognize as being righteous those who would simply take him at his Word. In Romans 3:24 to be justified is to be recognized as being right. It’s a judicial decree of rightness. God recognizes those who take him at his Word concerning the price Jesus became on the tree of crucifixion on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins. A judicial decree of righteousness. It doesn’t go away. It doesn’t abate over time. It’s their’s forever.
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

Stranger

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2017, 04:34:25 PM »
God’s not asking us to turn from anything to be saved. God’s asking us to believe Jesus accomplished salvation for us and we’re simply to believe it. Jesus did it all, there’s nothing left for us to do. God did all the giving. We do only all the receiving.

You seem very confident of all this. How about starting out with some reason why anybody should believe that this "God", of which you speak, even exists - outside of storybooks and human imagination...?
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Enki

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2017, 04:49:07 PM »
Will people accept what Jesus accomplished or will people reject it? God purchased the human race out of sins dominion never to be returned to the market place of sin again. God effectively canceled Satan’s ownership of all the human race. Satan can lay claim to no person based on their sinfulness. Does that mean the entire world is saved? No. A person has to have an individual change of status and that take place when they accept what the son did for them. Throughout the ages, God in his sovereignty, has chosen to recognize as being righteous those who would simply take him at his Word. In Romans 3:24 to be justified is to be recognized as being right. It’s a judicial decree of rightness. God recognizes those who take him at his Word concerning the price Jesus became on the tree of crucifixion on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins. A judicial decree of righteousness. It doesn’t go away. It doesn’t abate over time. It’s their’s forever.

newnature,

Don't be so silly. Your attempt at proselytizing has no effect on me whatever.(shrugs shoulders).
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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newnature

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2017, 04:50:14 PM »
You seem very confident of all this. How about starting out with some reason why anybody should believe that this "God", of which you speak, even exists - outside of storybooks and human imagination...?

Understanding peace with God comes from understanding the accomplishment of Jesus, but letting the peace of God rule in our hearts is not the same thing as understanding the reality of having peace with God. But, their people are under the assumption that their sin debt is separation from God. If an ounce of new reconciliation in this Age of Grace could be restored for anyone when it comes to the issue of their sin debt then the degree of forgiveness that must be obtained in order to restore the reconciliation is the very degree to which that individual refuses to believe that Jesus accomplished it all. Paul’s gospel is hid from those people. They don’t understand what reconciliation is all about. For a person to have to make their own peace with God would be nothing more than an exercise in futility, it could never be done. Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether.
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

Robbie

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2017, 04:58:56 PM »
I understand the grace v works position, that none can deserve forgiveness, only accept Christ who died for everyone's sins - and the change in character for the better follows.
However with no disrespect to you, you took a lot of time expressing that Newnature.
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Stranger

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2017, 05:02:35 PM »
You seem very confident of all this. How about starting out with some reason why anybody should believe that this "God", of which you speak, even exists - outside of storybooks and human imagination...?

Understanding peace with God comes from understanding the accomplishment of Jesus, but letting the peace of God rule in our hearts is not the same thing as understanding the reality of having peace with God. But, their people are under the assumption that their sin debt is separation from God. If an ounce of new reconciliation in this Age of Grace could be restored for anyone when it comes to the issue of their sin debt then the degree of forgiveness that must be obtained in order to restore the reconciliation is the very degree to which that individual refuses to believe that Jesus accomplished it all. Paul’s gospel is hid from those people. They don’t understand what reconciliation is all about. For a person to have to make their own peace with God would be nothing more than an exercise in futility, it could never be done. Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether.

So.... no reason at all then.

 ::)
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torridon

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2017, 05:16:41 PM »
Will people accept what Jesus accomplished or will people reject it? God purchased the human race out of sins dominion never to be returned to the market place of sin again. God effectively canceled Satan’s ownership of all the human race. Satan can lay claim to no person based on their sinfulness. Does that mean the entire world is saved? No. A person has to have an individual change of status and that take place when they accept what the son did for them. Throughout the ages, God in his sovereignty, has chosen to recognize as being righteous those who would simply take him at his Word. In Romans 3:24 to be justified is to be recognized as being right. It’s a judicial decree of rightness. God recognizes those who take him at his Word concerning the price Jesus became on the tree of crucifixion on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins. A judicial decree of righteousness. It doesn’t go away. It doesn’t abate over time. It’s their’s forever.

This makes no sense.

If there is a God, then he would not create and tolerate a Satan in the first place.

floo

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2017, 05:29:13 PM »
Flesh wants to say if I broke it I can fix it. God’s not asking us to turn from anything to be saved. God’s asking us to believe Jesus accomplished salvation for us and we’re simply to believe it. Jesus did it all, there’s nothing left for us to do. God did all the giving. We do only all the receiving.

All that is a belief with no evidence to support it. The Bible is not evidence as a it appears to be a very human construction with no input from any god, should one exist.

newnature

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2017, 05:30:43 PM »
newnature,

Don't be so silly. Your attempt at proselytizing has no effect on me whatever.(shrugs shoulders).

What did Jesus say from the tree of crucifixion? It is finished. Meaning paid in full. It’s an accounting term. The sin debt paid in full. Now if the sin debt was paid in full which one is left to come back and haunt you at some point and time? Now all have access to God. Sin is no longer the issue with God. No sin is the issue with God today. Then what is the issue with God today? The son is the issue with God today.
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

floo

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2017, 05:31:24 PM »
This makes no sense.

If there is a God, then he would not create and tolerate a Satan in the first place.

Good point, any god which creates evil as well as good is a psycho.

newnature

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2017, 05:33:10 PM »
I understand the grace v works position, that none can deserve forgiveness, only accept Christ who died for everyone's sins - and the change in character for the better follows.
However with no disrespect to you, you took a lot of time expressing that Newnature.

Reconciliation goes far beyond a relationship between two human beings; Paul spoke of a person’s relationship to God in terms of the restoration of the right relationship between a person and God. God’s love is very rare; his love is so paramount that God says he loves humans who are actively his enemies. God reconciles himself to his enemies while they are still in hostility. God’s reconciliation to the human race took place when the human race was actively God’s enemy, not after the human race repented. An enemy is not someone who simply falls short of being a friend; an enemy is on the other side of the fence. An enemy is in absolute opposition and their actions are hateful. It was while the human race was in this state of utter hostility and in direct opposition to God that the human race were reconciled to God by the death of his son.
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

newnature

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2017, 05:34:37 PM »
Understanding peace with God comes from understanding the accomplishment of Jesus, but letting the peace of God rule in our hearts is not the same thing as understanding the reality of having peace with God. But, their people are under the assumption that their sin debt is separation from God. If an ounce of new reconciliation in this Age of Grace could be restored for anyone when it comes to the issue of their sin debt then the degree of forgiveness that must be obtained in order to restore the reconciliation is the very degree to which that individual refuses to believe that Jesus accomplished it all. Paul’s gospel is hid from those people. They don’t understand what reconciliation is all about. For a person to have to make their own peace with God would be nothing more than an exercise in futility, it could never be done. Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether.


So.... no reason at all then.

 ::)

The Apostle Paul was commissioned to tell people that God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all the human is concerned; sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice today. How much forgiveness does everyone have according to the Apostle Paul? It has all been forgiven upfront; there is not an ounce of forgiveness to be obtained. The reconciliation that Jesus accomplished for the human race was total, complete, and unalterable, it will always stand. God is reconciled where the entirety the human races sin debt is concerned; there is no sin left on an individual to forgive.
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

floo

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2017, 05:36:02 PM »
The Apostle Paul was commissioned to tell people that God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all the human is concerned; sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice today. How much forgiveness does everyone have according to the Apostle Paul? It has all been forgiven upfront; there is not an ounce of forgiveness to be obtained. The reconciliation that Jesus accomplished for the human race was total, complete, and unalterable, it will always stand. God is reconciled where the entirety the human races sin debt is concerned; there is no sin left on an individual to forgive.

Assertion NOT fact!

newnature

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2017, 05:40:19 PM »
All that is a belief with no evidence to support it. The Bible is not evidence as a it appears to be a very human construction with no input from any god, should one exist.

Genesis 3:14-15 - What literal words could portray these literal facts so wonderfully as these expressive figures of speech? It is the same with the other figures used in versus 14, “On thy belly shalt thou go”. This figure means infinitely more than the literal belly of flesh and blood. It paints for the eyes of our mind the picture of Satan’s ultimate humiliation; for prostration was ever the most eloquent sign of subjection. Ps. 44:25 denotes such a prolonged prostration and such a depth of submission as could never be conveyed or expressed in literal words.

What literal words could portray these literal facts so wonderfully as these expressive figures of speech?
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

newnature

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2017, 05:44:29 PM »
Assertion NOT fact!

Some say they refuse to believe in God, they refuse to believe there was ever a wall in the first place, why? Because to believe there was a wall in the first place is to acknowledge their sin and to acknowledge the presence of a God. They don’t want to retain God in their thinking. Some people think they can go directly to God and they can bypass Jesus. Here again when they do that they are not acknowledging Jesus and the necessity of what Jesus accomplished. Far more subtle, people thinking it’s their responsibility to remove the wall. It’s up to them to remove the wall. A most common response from this group is “I’m, just not ready yet. I’ve given up on this religious stuff”. They think it’s up to them to take the wall down. These people commit. They recommit. They recommit their re-commitment. most often they give up at some point. They fool themselves into thinking they’ve achieved it or they give up because every time they’re sinning again. They’re trying to tear that wall down themselves by their refusal to sin. Since they think salvation is tied to their behavior, they never come to the point of placing their total trust in the fact that Jesus remove this wall forever. So they just shove the whole thing aside. They say they want not part of this religious game.
2 Timothy 2:15, approved where? At the Judgement Seat of the Savior. A workman worthy of God’s praise rightly dividing the word of truth.

Stranger

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2017, 05:47:38 PM »
So.... no reason at all then.

 ::)

The Apostle Paul was commissioned to tell people that God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all the human is concerned; sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice today. How much forgiveness does everyone have according to the Apostle Paul? It has all been forgiven upfront; there is not an ounce of forgiveness to be obtained. The reconciliation that Jesus accomplished for the human race was total, complete, and unalterable, it will always stand. God is reconciled where the entirety the human races sin debt is concerned; there is no sin left on an individual to forgive.

And still not a hint of a reason to take this "God" of yours seriously.

Have you thought about sticking pencils up your nose and saying "wibble"? It would be exactly as persuasive as the nonsense you keep posting...
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Gordon

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2017, 05:52:12 PM »
Some say they refuse to believe in God, they refuse to believe there was ever a wall in the first place, why? Because to believe there was a wall in the first place is to acknowledge their sin and to acknowledge the presence of a God. They don’t want to retain God in their thinking. Some people think they can go directly to God and they can bypass Jesus. Here again when they do that they are not acknowledging Jesus and the necessity of what Jesus accomplished. Far more subtle, people thinking it’s their responsibility to remove the wall. It’s up to them to remove the wall. A most common response from this group is “I’m, just not ready yet. I’ve given up on this religious stuff”. They think it’s up to them to take the wall down. These people commit. They recommit. They recommit their re-commitment. most often they give up at some point. They fool themselves into thinking they’ve achieved it or they give up because every time they’re sinning again. They’re trying to tear that wall down themselves by their refusal to sin. Since they think salvation is tied to their behavior, they never come to the point of placing their total trust in the fact that Jesus remove this wall forever. So they just shove the whole thing aside. They say they want not part of this religious game.

This is as good a fallacy-fest as we've ever had in a single post - so well done you.

Stranger

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Re: Who is Doing the Forgiving
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2017, 05:56:27 PM »
Some say they refuse to believe in God...

Plenty of people see no reason whatsoever to believe in any of the many, many gods that humans have worshipped but that isn't the same as refusing to believe. How could you refuse to believe something anyway? It makes no sense - you're either persuaded or not - it's not a choice.

...they refuse to believe there was ever a wall in the first place, why? Because to believe there was a wall in the first place is to acknowledge their sin and to acknowledge the presence of a God. They don’t want to retain God in their thinking...

Now you're just babbling nonsense again.
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