Hundreds of dead babies found on Catholic property.

[john]

http://freethinker.co.uk/2017/03/03/gruesome-find-at-catholic-home-for-unmarried-mothers/

Following this report about hundreds of children bodies being found in a Mother and Baby unit run by the Catholic Church at Tuam in Ireland and the allegations contained in that report that more bodies are likely to be found on other church properties, should the Irish Government obtain a warrant to carry out searches on all the RCC's premises? 

Society needs to know exactly what went on in these places and deal with the people involved. We also need to know just how far up the management chain of the RCC knowledge and authorisation of these practices went.

[Rhiannon]

What I find truly horrifying about this is that the remains aren't just of stillborn/premature babies, or even healthy neonates. They include toddlers aged 2-3.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-baby-remains-tuam-galway-home-unmarried-mothers-deaths-abortion-a7609486.html

[john]

Yes there are so many atrocities linked to the Catholic Church's practices (known to be true or rumoured) all around the globe.

The only way the church can restore it's image is for a thorough investigation to bring things out into the open and then to deal with any offences under secular laws.

The RCC itself shows no sign at all of opening itself up to investigation and indeed seems prepared to go to great lengths to cover up it's misdemeanours.

So my suggestion is that civil authorities throughout the world now have sufficient evidence to enter and search RCC premises in the attempt to find evidence and bring offenders to book.

[Rhiannon]

Surely it's too late for the RC Church to ever fully redeem itself in the eyes of the outside world?

[ippy]

How come this sort of thing is no longer surprising, it's truly horrendous.

ippy

[Bubbles]

I think all Catholics should hang their head in shame that they belong to an evil organisation which has apparently turned a blind eye, for so many years, to child murder as well as paedophile priests.

I think some of them are conditioned from birth not to be critical of church authority.
I don't think they need to hang their heads in shame, because they are the victims.

Non Catholics aren't victims, so it's a bit much really for them to condemn the victims, and Catholics are the victims.

The Catholic Church deserves to lose its authority in the eyes of people.

Ive never been brought up in my home, that a church has an unchallengable authority, so it's easy for me to say I suppose.

Some Catholics cannot bring themselves to criticise the Pope because they have been brought up to this idea of authority.

The Pope and priests are speaking for God to some of them.

I've noticed to some, criticising the Pope or church, would be tantamount to criticising God.

Not all Catholics are like that of course, but a fair few have been brought up that way.

I had heard that there was a lot of anger amongst Irish Catholics towards things that have happened, but most of the Catholics I have known don't seem to think it's the churches fault.

Plus you have that bit about St Peter being given the keys to heaven and what is decreed as ok by the church is actually ok by God.

I suppose many Catholics feel the Pope saying it was wrong to have happened, retrospectively is ok.

They have no where else to go, if they believe their church holds the keys 🔑

I'm just glad I wasn't raised with the idea of the authority of the RC Church.


 

[Bubbles]

I think all Catholics should hang their head in shame that they belong to an evil organisation which has apparently turned a blind eye, for so many years, to child murder as well as paedophile priests.

Plus Floo, I don't think we know the RCC did murder the babies, I thought they just disposed of the bodies in an inappropriate fashion over many years.

What makes you think they were murdered?

Do you think nuns murdered the full term babies?

That isn't what the article says, it was the disrespectful disposal of the remains and the high mortality rate that was the issue.

Claiming they were murdered is a step further

[jeremyp]

I think all Catholics should hang their head in shame that they belong to an evil organisation which has apparently turned a blind eye, for so many years, to child murder as well as paedophile priests.

Where is the evidence of murder?

[Anchorman]

As far as I know, no  results on the caus(es) of death have as yet been circulated. We cannot yet charge anyone with murder till we know murder has happened. When we can be assured that murder took place, then throw everything the law has at the potential perpetrators.

[jeremyp]

Treating the unmarried mothers as slaves as apparently happened in these ghastly dens of iniquity would ensure that many of the babies didn't survive their birth, that is tantamount to murder in my eyes.

Where is your actual evidence? "Apparently" isn't good enough. Also, your definition of murder does not necessarily accord with the true one as used by the courts. All we have at the moment is a mass grave. We don't know anything about the circumstances of the deaths of those babies yet.

I  agree that it is likely that some shocking crimes have been committed, but you don't know yet and screaming murder while frothing at the mouth isn't going to get us closer to the truth.

Also, accusing all Catholics of being complicit doesn't help. I'll wager most of them knew nothing of this at the time and many would have tried to stop it if they had known.

[ippy]

I think some of them are conditioned from birth not to be critical of church authority.
I don't think they need to hang their heads in shame, because they are the victims.

Non Catholics aren't victims, so it's a bit much really for them to condemn the victims, and Catholics are the victims.

The Catholic Church deserves to lose its authority in the eyes of people.

Ive never been brought up in my home, that a church has an unchallengable authority, so it's easy for me to say I suppose.

Some Catholics cannot bring themselves to criticise the Pope because they have been brought up to this idea of authority.

The Pope and priests are speaking for God to some of them.

I've noticed to some, criticising the Pope or church, would be tantamount to criticising God.

Not all Catholics are like that of course, but a fair few have been brought up that way.

I had heard that there was a lot of anger amongst Irish Catholics towards things that have happened, but most of the Catholics I have known don't seem to think it's the churches fault.

Plus you have that bit about St Peter being given the keys to heaven and what is decreed as ok by the church is actually ok by God.

I suppose many Catholics feel the Pope saying it was wrong to have happened, retrospectively is ok.

They have no where else to go, if they believe their church holds the keys 🔑

I'm just glad I wasn't raised with the idea of the authority of the RC Church.

Just a thought Rose, how can a new born baby possibly be a catholic and some of the other stuff you are describing is the usual indoctrination that all of the religions do to any vunrable very young children they can get their hands on, they're all seen as potential new recruits.

ippy

[Bubbles]

Just a thought Rose, how can a new born baby possibly be a catholic and some of the other stuff you are describing is the usual indoctrination that all of the religions do to any vunrable very young children they can get their hands on, they're all seen as potential new recruits.

ippy

How can a new born baby be Catholic? By being born from Catholic parents. At that point belief doesn't come into it, but from the moment that baby is welcomed into the RCC it is considered a Catholic.

I don't think it is the same in other denominations, the RCC seems much more authoritarian than say the c of e.

The vicar hasn't quite got the authority in the ( c of e or Protestant) Christian community that a priest has, no one has to confess their sins to a vicar.

It's different.

[Anchorman]

How can a new born baby be Catholic? By being born from Catholic parents. At that point belief doesn't come into it, but from the moment that baby is welcomed into the RCC it is considered a Catholic.

I don't think it is the same in other denominations, the RCC seems much more authoritarian than say the c of e.

The vicar hasn't quite got the authority in the ( c of e or Protestant) Christian community that a priest has, no one has to confess their sins to a vicar.

It's different.

-
It's a theology rather than a church governance thing.
The RC accept seven sacraments - the Reformed only two. Confession is supposed to be an RC sacrament where the priest acts as confessor.
The rest of us dial direct and go to God!

[Humph Warden Bennett]

-
It's a theology rather than a church governance thing.
The RC accept seven sacraments - the Reformed only two. Confession is supposed to be an RC sacrament where the priest acts as confessor.
The rest of us dial direct and go to God!

The Orthodox have confession too, although it is done slightly differently.

[ippy]

How can a new born baby be Catholic? By being born from Catholic parents. At that point belief doesn't come into it, but from the moment that baby is welcomed into the RCC it is considered a Catholic.

I don't think it is the same in other denominations, the RCC seems much more authoritarian than say the c of e.

The vicar hasn't quite got the authority in the ( c of e or Protestant) Christian community that a priest has, no one has to confess their sins to a vicar.

It's different.

I'll stick with my world Rose, you're welcome to that lot, they're so desperate they even prey on newborn children it's obscene.

ippy 

[Dicky Underpants]

Where is your actual evidence? "Apparently" isn't good enough. Also, your definition of murder does not necessarily accord with the true one as used by the courts. All we have at the moment is a mass grave. We don't know anything about the circumstances of the deaths of those babies yet.

It is true that we don't yet know anything definite about the origins of this mass grave, but we do have autobiographies of unmarried mothers who were condemned to such institutions as that run by the Magdalen Sisters. And they paint a quite horrifying picture for which the phrase 'held as slaves' would not be too strong a description.

[Robbie]

It was the same here in unmarried mothers homes. CofE, Sally Army, charities, independent.....all horrific places. Improved 1970s.

Rose the Anglo-Catholic branch of CofE do confession. Are more Catholic than Catholics in some respects.

What Rose says about Catholics having nowt to be ashamed of is correct unless they were the ones who did it. Don't tar all with same brush it only takes a few bad apples.

[ippy]

It was the same here in unmarried mothers homes. CofE, Sally Army, charities, independent.....all horrific places. Improved 1970s.

Rose the Anglo-Catholic branch of CofE do confession. Are more Catholic than Catholics in some respects.

What Rose says about Catholics having nowt to be ashamed of is correct unless they were the ones who did it. Don't tar all with same brush it only takes a few bad apples.

The RC's seem to have more than their fair share of bad apples, going by their past record I guess there will be some unsavoury discoveries come out of the woodwork at the end of this lot.

ippy

[Rhiannon]

It was the same here in unmarried mothers homes. CofE, Sally Army, charities, independent.....all horrific places. Improved 1970s.

Happened to my grandmother in the war, I thought for years she was in a Catholic home but I discovered recently it was run by the Sally Army. She was spared ill treatment because she was married, unlike the unmarried girls, but the babies were dying because of substandard care. In the end she got herself on a train to London when in labour to get to her husband and a proper hospital. The midwife that saved her and my mum was Catholic.

[Robbie]

Poor woman, thank goodness she managed to get away from the place & go to a hospital.

I've heard stories of unmarried pregnant girls in those homes not having essential medical care when their pregnancy wasn't straightforward. Basically they were punished! It is tragic but was the way of the world then. Girls could be put in mental hospitals because they were considered to be of loose morals.

[Rhiannon]

During the war married mothers ended up in homes too if they were evacuated. Their treatment was at least better if not the quality of medical care - my nan told us about one unmarried girl who was pregnant with twins and who was made to scrub the floors each day. The father was a Canadian airman who she was adamant would come for her but the people running the place laughed at her. Then one day some baby clothes arrived from his mother in Canada, followed by the airman himself. Apparently my nan told him to get her the hell out of there, which he did.

[Robbie]

That was a heartening happy ending.
I didn't know married girls who were pregnant had to go into those homes if evacuated. Wonder why and whose idea that was and if they had any choice at all.

[Rhiannon]

All I know is that my granddad had to stay in London because he had a reserved occupation. My nan was evacuated only once pregnant - before that she was a telephone operator -and presumably it was felt that mother and baby homes were the best place for women to await the birth.

[Nearly Sane]

Catholics should all be seriously questioning the evil that has been perpetrated in the name of that faith. Goodness knows why popes, priests, monks and nuns have been placed on a pedestal and looked up to when many of them were scum, either because they committed terrible crimes, or failed to bring to book the people who were responsible for them.

I think most RCs don't think it is done in the name of the faith they hold. This is little more than the all Muslims should apologise for terrorism.

[Robbie]

Catholics should all be seriously questioning the evil that has been perpetrated in the name of that faith. Goodness knows why popes, priests, monks and nuns have been placed on a pedestal and looked up to when many of them were scum, either because they committed terrible crimes, or failed to bring to book the people who were responsible for them.

You keep coming back and saying that!
Do you seriously believe people perpetrate heinous crimes in the name of their faith? By the grace of God?
If I did somethng wrong I'd hardly be saying'i'm doin this in your name Lord'.
Honestly  .

I wonder how many priests, nuns, monks you know personally or even lay catholics.

There are people who will use Religious statu as cover for dirty deeds but that isn't the fault of the religion.

Now their is little status in the Religious life thank goodness, so evil people will have to join something else to hide behind.