Is Jenni Murray right?

[Nearly Sane]

Is there a difference?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39173398

[Rhiannon]

I'm not sure I think that boys now are raised with a sense of entitlement and I don't know if they were back in my day either; but some did think that they were entitled to take whatever they wanted from me. As a mother my main concern for my son is that he will go through life expected to 'man up' and he is far more at risk from mental health issues and violence from his peers than my girls ever will be - I think the pressures on young men are horrendous, just as they are on girls, but in a different way.

And it is this difference that is real - even things like never having to deal with heavy menstrual bleeding is a difference, just as women have never had to deal with erections and wet dreams. I don't like this stuff abut how shit it is to grow up female compared to growing up male because it isn't - maybe it's just that growing up is shit all round.

Where I do agree is this idea that often comes across in interviews with women who have transitioned or who are transitioning that being female is about wardrobe and make-up choices - Kellie Maloney has made comments about how the biggest difference in her life now is the amount she spends on clothes. It seems to be a very narrow definition of what it means to be female. Maybe it is because these people are in the public eye but I think they do trans people a disservice; my friend's daughter isn't remotely glamorous but is clearly female in her identity.

[jeremyp]

I do not have an answer to the question posed as I am neither a woman not a trans sexual so I do not have the necessary life experience. I would say, however, that, in a world in which everybody is treated fairly, compassionately and with respect, labels wouldn't matter.

What actually concerns me is that you apparently can't even raise the question without being demonised.

[Nearly Sane]

I do not have an answer to the question posed as I am neither a woman not a trans sexual so I do not have the necessary life experience. I would say, however, that, in a world in which everybody is treated fairly, compassionately and with respect, labels wouldn't matter.

What actually concerns me is that you apparently can't even raise the question without being demonised.

pretty much my take and hence when a woman who could be impregnated by rape tells me that someone who cannot be might be different, then is see it as as a difference. Not an a difference that makes the change impossible jyest one where the clue is obvious

[Nearly Sane]

I do not have an answer to the question posed as I am neither a woman not a trans sexual so I do not have the necessary life experience. I would say, however, that, in a world in which everybody is treated fairly, compassionately and with respect, labels wouldn't matter.

What actually concerns me is that you apparently can't even raise the question without being demonised.

you can't raise any question without being demonized

[Nearly Sane]

I do not have an answer to the question posed as I am neither a woman not a trans sexual so I do not have the necessary life experience. I would say, however, that, in a world in which everybody is treated fairly, compassionately and with respect, labels wouldn't matter.

What actually concerns me is that you apparently can't even raise the question without being demonised.

So you cannot have an opinion?

[Rhiannon]

It's easier for us to have opinions and ask questions than it is for Jenni Murray and Germaine Greer. They will attract hate and possibly lose work because they have.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not sure I think that boys now are raised with a sense of entitlement and I don't know if they were back in my day either; but some did think that they were entitled to take whatever they wanted from me. As a mother my main concern for my son is that he will go through life expected to 'man up' and he is far more at risk from mental health issues and violence from his peers than my girls ever will be - I think the pressures on young men are horrendous, just as they are on girls, but in a different way.

And it is this difference that is real - even things like never having to deal with heavy menstrual bleeding is a difference, just as women have never had to deal with erections and wet dreams. I don't like this stuff abut how shit it is to grow up female compared to growing up male because it isn't - maybe it's just that growing up is shit all round.

Where I do agree is this idea that often comes across in interviews with women who have transitioned or who are transitioning that being female is about wardrobe and make-up choices - Kellie Maloney has made comments about how the biggest difference in her life now is the amount she spends on clothes. It seems to be a very narrow definition of what it means to be female. Maybe it is because these people are in the public eye but I think they do trans people a disservice; my friend's daughter isn't remotely glamorous but is clearly female in her identity.

not sure any of that addresses the points that  Jenni Murray makes?

[Rhiannon]

not sure any of that addresses the points that  Jenni Murray makes?

It's where my thoughts went on reading the article. Sorry if you find it irrelevant.

[Nearly Sane]

It's where my thoughts went on reading the article. Sorry if you find it irrelevant.

interesting, wholly, but finding it irrelevant to the position that Jenni Murray is talking about seems a different choice.

[Rhiannon]

I'm assuming that people who believe men have a sense of entitlement believe that is acquired as they grow up. That implies that boys somehow have it easier. I don't believe that to be true in the slightest and I find it irritating. Similarly someone going through  a mtf transition aged 30 will have spent more time living as a child then as a man.

I thought it was obvious that I agree with JM re the notion that being a woman is about frocks and the Estee Lauder counter. I don't think I've ever possessed a pair of patent heels and matching clutch.

[Samuel]

I was discussing this very thing with friends on facebook over the weekend. I think it's undeniable that women and trans women do not share identical experiences, but I would quote Caitlin Moran and suggest that the compassionate thing to do is look at someone and ask 'how much more shit have they had to deal with than me?' whenever questions of oppression and prejudice come up. Anyway, its not a competition... is it? does living as a women beat living with gender dysphoria?

I think the real problem is the idea of 'laying claim to womanhood', as if there is a widely agreed definition of what that is. For instance...

when a woman who could be impregnated by rape tells me that someone who cannot be might be different, then is see it as as a difference.

sure, but we would never use such a difference to deny a woman unable to conceive her 'claim to womanhood' would we? For instance someone who is sterile due to a genetic disorder. No, whilst it may be reasonable to acknowledge the differences in experience between certain groups of women it is ultimately dangerous to try and define what 'being a woman' means.

As for the implied assertion that feminism is centred on the experiences of 'real women' I would simply point to Rhiannon's earlier post (which I wholly agree with) to see how the patriarchy exists far beyond the victimhood of women.

Feminism is a varied philosophy and does not have all the answers. I do think however that positions help by the likes of Jenni Murray and Germaine Greer on the issue of trans women is increasingly old fashioned. At best its proprietorial at worst its divisive and dangerous.

[Nearly Sane]

Many valid points, Samuel, but surely you are caricaturing the position that Jenni Murray is taking here, in that she was expressing concern that some of the trans people she had met were being more accepting of a patriarchal attitude to women and where therefore undermining that struggle?

[wigginhall]

Apparently, Jenni Murray didn't write the title, which has the interesting phrase 'don't call yourself a real woman', and also the idea that having lived as a male disqualifies you from being a woman.   I don't really know what 'real woman' means, nor who is going to decide this.

The comments below follow well-trodden paths - there are those who recommend a biological approach, in other words, a man has a penis, and a woman has a vagina.   This seems to ignore the social nature of identity - I don't inspect people's genitals, actually.   In other words, 'men' and 'women' do a kind of self-presentation.   

I suppose some women are angry that trans women want to be treated as women.    It doesn't bother me, really, nor the idea that trans men want to live as men.   

But it is all very interesting, as it raises many issues about sex/gender, and identity itself.   There seems to be a kind of historical sequence, women fought for equality, gays and lesbians had to throw off centuries of prejudice, now trans people are doing the same.   I wonder if there is anything more to come?

[Samuel]

Hi Nearly Sane

as the recent furore over the photo shoot by Emma Watson has highlighted, feminism is about empowering choice, not denying it. Is Beyoncé a feminist icon? many think she is specifically because she uses the way she dresses and her sexuality as sources of power.

Jenni Murray's attitude fails to appreciate what it means to a trans woman to finally be free to express her true identity. Clothes and make up are a big part of that empowerment.

The debate over whether or not clothes and makeup are too attached to the patriarchy is actually a separate issue altogether and applies to many other areas of life. I don't see Jenni Murray arguing that married heterosexual women are playing into the patriarchy by entering into the incredibly loaded institution of marriage (unless se has, I haven't done the research).

[wigginhall]

Yes, I thought it was unfair to attack trans women for being conventional, when tons of 'real women' are conventional, i.e. shave their legs, and buy nice clothes. 

There have been attacks on women like this, for example, by Dworkin, who wrote a strange book called 'Right Wing Women', lambasting women who cooperate with the patriarchy.    And some even attacked women who have sex with men. 

Surely, there is a bottom line where we respect other people's identity, and the ways in which they wish to present this.  As the Germans say, Selbstdarstellung.   Or as Judith Butler argues, sex/gender are performances.   I like the variety.  But I realize that sex/gender can make people very angry.

Interesting that trans men don't seem to get people as angry, well, I haven't noticed it.   Who cares if someone wants to live as a man sans dick?

[Nearly Sane]

Mmm whether Jenni Murray hashas not argued for something at is seen as equivalent is a tu quoque fallacy. And let's be careful about the issue of Emma Watson choosing to do something and someone supporting a uniform.

In reply to wiiginhall, I think it's simplistic to portray this as women angry that trans woman want to be treated as women, I see none of that in Jenni Murray's comments. I think wevare currently in a situation where social change is outstripping the ability to talk about it sensibly. Hence the nonsense about Germaine Greer being no platformed.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I thought it was unfair to attack trans women for being conventional, when tons of 'real women' are conventional, i.e. shave their legs, and buy nice clothes. 

There have been attacks on women like this, for example, by Dworkin, who wrote a strange book called 'Right Wing Women', lambasting women who cooperate with the patriarchy.    And some even attacked women who have sex with men. 

Surely, there is a bottom line where we respect other people's identity, and the ways in which they wish to present this.  As the Germans say, Selbstdarstellung.   Or as Judith Butler argues, sex/gender are performances.   I like the variety.  But I realize that sex/gender can make people very angry.

Interesting that trans men don't seem to get people as angry, well, I haven't noticed it.   Who cares if someone wants to live as a man sans dick?

Again it reads to me that Murray's comments were about supporting an enforcement by means of a uniform of the patriarchy, not the choice itself. As to the difference between trans male/female surely the idea is that if you have lived as a man you have been inherently benefitting from conservative social attitude?

[wigginhall]

That's a fair point about lacking the vocabulary to talk about it.  I saw a film recently about trans girls, and the little boys (as were), were just saying 'I'm a girl', not 'I want to be a girl'.  At first this seemed to dumbfound their parents,    but eventually they became supportive, and even found a school which was.

[Nearly Sane]

That's a fair point about lacking the vocabulary to talk about it.  I saw a film recently about trans girls, and the little boys (as were), were just saying 'I'm a girl', not 'I want to be a girl'.  At first this seemed to dumbfound their parents,    but eventually they became supportive, and even found a school which was.

I think that's where a lot of discomfort comes from. I am happy to celebrate the variety with you, but we have a long way to go to translate binary language into anything that isn't hopelessly confused. I note that my old university has a candidate for rector that wants any movement to non binary pronouns.

[wigginhall]

This article has some interesting points about 'real women', and also documents examples of transphobia in feminist groups and individuals.   Some trans women seem to report that maximum abuse towards them  comes from feminists. 

http://www.thefeministwire.com/2015/03/real-women-a-critique-of-feminist-transphobia/

[Samuel]

As to the difference between trans male/female surely the idea is that if you have lived as a man you have been inherently benefitting from conservative social attitude?

True as far as it goes. But I think it emphasises the benefits of living as a man above the suffering of living with gender dysphoria. An unnecessary hierarchy that smacks of bias rooted in prejudice.

Do you think Jenni Murray is right Nearly?

p.s. No platforming is moronic, and fair cop of my tu quoque fallacy. Guilty as charged.

[Nearly Sane]

 I was making a specific point about why there might be a perceived difference between trans men/women. I think acknowleging differences in experiences is not necessarily creating a hierarchy.

Do I think Jenni Murray is right? Mmm I am not entirely sure we can talk about right/wrong here. As raised earlier, i am struggling with how we talk about it, and the language seems blunt.

[Nearly Sane]

This article has some interesting points about 'real women', and also documents examples of transphobia in feminist groups and individuals.   Some trans women seem to report that maximum abuse towards them  comes from feminists. 

http://www.thefeministwire.com/2015/03/real-women-a-critique-of-feminist-transphobia/

I can see how this happens. If you see that men are the same even if they want to be a woman, or feel they are a woman (note I don't know of anyway of expressing this which doesn't trivialise a trans persons experience), then they will always be in some sense a man - not saying that is right. Also the article itself stresses the difference in experience and that seens crucial.

[Dicky Underpants]

Where I do agree is this idea that often comes across in interviews with women who have transitioned or who are transitioning that being female is about wardrobe and make-up choices - Kellie Maloney has made comments about how the biggest difference in her life now is the amount she spends on clothes. It seems to be a very narrow definition of what it means to be female. Maybe it is because these people are in the public eye but I think they do trans people a disservice; my friend's daughter isn't remotely glamorous but is clearly female in her identity.

I get the impression that Jenni Murray's argument stems from a strong reaction to one particular trans-gender priest she interviewed. If what JM reports is true, then the priest in question did seem to have a rather petty attittude to what being a priest or woman really entailed. But the petty attitudes of one individual do not constitute the basis of an argument to dismiss the problems of gender dysphoria.