Author Topic: 2nd Indy Referendum? (Read 59475 times)

Aruntraveller · « **on:** March 13, 2017, 11:57:25 AM »

News just breaking:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nicola-sturgeon-confirms-plans-to-hold-second-scottish-independence-referendum_uk_58c67e04e4b054a0ea6ba177?vp00ms4i

Anchorman · « **Reply #1 on:** March 13, 2017, 12:20:32 PM »

Inevitable!

ad_orientem · « **Reply #2 on:** March 13, 2017, 12:25:49 PM »

I'm all for the Scots having indepedence but then giving it all away to Brussels seems like madness, if you ask me. It's just changing austerity for someone else's austerity.

Anchorman · « **Reply #3 on:** March 13, 2017, 12:34:46 PM »

Thing is though, it's more than that. Just as in the Thatcher era, Scotland was forced to thole a government she had manifestly rejected over several elections. Same thing here. A nation living under a government she did not vote for and which she rejected convincingly is always a trigger for unrest.

ad_orientem · « **Reply #4 on:** March 13, 2017, 12:39:42 PM »

Don't me wrong. I understand why anyone, let alone the Scots, dislike the Tories.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #5 on:** March 13, 2017, 12:56:57 PM »

Before any arguments on this, I would like this to have a threshold for success higher than 50%.

Sriram · « **Reply #6 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:08:05 PM »

How many referendums will they have on the same subject? Best of threes or something?!!

How about one more on Brexit then?!

wigginhall · « **Reply #7 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:20:01 PM »

As Jim said, completely inevitable after hard Brexit looks likely. In fact, I don't see how the Scottish govt could have avoided it. Polls are showing 48-50% yes, so that is more than last time.

I had to laugh at Labour's reaction, of course, they are going to oppose it, to save Kezia's face, but it makes them look daft.

The basic principle of the self-determination of nations makes me say, vote yes.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #8 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:23:08 PM »

Quote from: Sriram on March 13, 2017, 01:08:05 PM

How many referendums will they have on the same subject? Best of threes or something?!!

How about one more on Brexit then?!

Which is the position of the Lib Dems, i.e. a Brexit again after the deal is done but against the Indy one.

The Brexit vote was a substantial change in circumstance as covered in the SNP manifesto for the Scottish parliament so there is at least a justifiable democratic position on this. Again I think this sort of issue would be dealt with by having a threshold that is substantially higher than 50% for change.

ad_orientem · « **Reply #9 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:24:37 PM »

Quote from: wigginhall on March 13, 2017, 01:20:01 PM

The basic principle of the self-determination of nations makes me say, vote yes.

Indeed but then why give it all away to the EU? Just more austerity and neo-liberal ecomomics.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:26:05 PM »

Quote from: wigginhall on March 13, 2017, 01:20:01 PM

As Jim said, completely inevitable after hard Brexit looks likely. In fact, I don't see how the Scottish govt could have avoided it. Polls are showing 48-50% yes, so that is more than last time.

I had to laugh at Labour's reaction, of course, they are going to oppose it, to save Kezia's face, but it makes them look daft.

The basic principle of the self-determination of nations makes me say, vote yes.

I see Jeremy Corbyn has said Labour will oppose independence because they oppose any break up of the UK. Is that his position on Irish unification?

wigginhall · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:29:55 PM »

Breaking: the United Kingdom!

Anchorman · « **Reply #12 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:31:05 PM »

Labour's response has been a mess - to put it mildly. Yesterday, Corbyn was "fine" at the prospect of a second referendum - totally undermining the position of the leader of his own party in Scotland.

Sriram · « **Reply #13 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:31:27 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on March 13, 2017, 01:23:08 PM

Which is the position of the Lib Dems, i.e. a Brexit again after the deal is done but against the Indy one.

The Brexit vote was a substantial change in circumstance as covered in the SNP manifesto for the Scottish parliament so there is at least a justifiable democratic position on this. Again I think this sort of issue would be dealt with by having a threshold that is substantially higher than 50% for change.

In fact it is the Scottish referendum that decided the Brexit one. People can't argue the other way around now.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:33:59 PM »

Quote from: Sriram on March 13, 2017, 01:31:27 PM

In fact it is the Scottish referendum that decided the Brexit one. People can't argue the other way around now.

Sorry, not sure what you mean here?

wigginhall · « **Reply #15 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:34:38 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on March 13, 2017, 01:26:05 PM

I see Jeremy Corbyn has said Labour will oppose independence because they oppose any break up of the UK. Is that his position on Irish unification?

I found it odd last time that the comparison with Ireland was not mentioned a lot. Obviously, there are big differences - the Irish were trying to reject English (and Norman) rule for a very long time, is it 800 years? and the armed struggle was part of this. The Act of Union is quite different. However, self-determination is self-determination. Another point is that the argument for Irish independence was not so much economic, and Ireland was economically poor until the 1960s.

Corbyn may be accused of English chauvinism, in other words, self-determination applies to all countries in the world, except Scotland. Eh?

Sriram · « **Reply #16 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:36:20 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on March 13, 2017, 01:33:59 PM

Sorry, not sure what you mean here?

If Scottish independence had been granted...Brexit may not have happened.They chose to stay with the UK, and Brexit followed. They now can't argue that because Brexit has happened, they need another referendum.

wigginhall · « **Reply #17 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:44:27 PM »

A lot of people saying to me, (not in Scotland), who wants to see the Tories run the country into the ground for the next 15 years? It seems a big motive for Indyref Yes. Sorry, running the country into the ground means 'taking back control' of course.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:45:32 PM »

Quote from: Sriram on March 13, 2017, 01:36:20 PM

If Scottish independence had been granted...Brexit may not have happened.They chose to stay with the UK, and Brexit followed. They now can't argue that because Brexit has happened, they need another referendum.

And part of the case that was made to stay in the UK was that we would stay in the EU. Therefore there was a significant change. So yes, they can argue for it..

Sriram · « **Reply #19 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:48:11 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on March 13, 2017, 01:45:32 PM

And part of the case that was made to stay in the UK was that we woukd stay in the EU. Therefore there was a signifuxant change. So yes, they can argue for it..

It is about sentiment. If UK had broken up, England and others may not have voted to exit the EU. It is because they perceived UK as one nation that Brexit was chosen.

Chicken and egg perhaps.

wigginhall · « **Reply #20 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:48:29 PM »

Last night, various Scottish friends were saying that this was on. I must admit, the cherished wife and I whooped and yelled, and shouted imprecations at May, hard Brexit, and right-wing twats everywhere.

Rhiannon · « **Reply #21 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:51:46 PM »

We're a nation of haters now. We hate foreigners, hate each other, hate ourselves.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #22 on:** March 13, 2017, 01:59:54 PM »

Quote from: Sriram on March 13, 2017, 01:48:11 PM

It is about sentiment. If UK had broken up, England and others may not have voted to exit the EU. It is because they perceived UK as one nation that Brexit was chosen.

Chicken and egg perhaps.

I think it's even more likely that Brexit would have happened and the numbers bear that out.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #23 on:** March 13, 2017, 02:01:07 PM »

Quote from: Rhiannon on March 13, 2017, 01:51:46 PM

We're a nation of haters now. We hate foreigners, hate each other, hate ourselves.

This seems to imply there was a time when we didn't have such hate. When was this?

wigginhall · « **Reply #24 on:** March 13, 2017, 02:02:56 PM »

I think self-determination tends to dissolve hatred. For example, if you go to Ireland, people do not tend to resent the English, as independence is a fact.

News:

Author Topic: 2nd Indy Referendum? (Read 59475 times)

Rhiannon