2nd Indy Referendum?

[Bubbles]

With opinion polls showing less than 40% of Scottish voters in favour of a new referendum before Brexit, Downing Street said it did not believe Sturgeon had the mandate for second vote.
“Only a little over two years ago people in Scotland voted decisively to remain part of our United Kingdom in a referendum which the Scottish government defined as a ‘once in a generation’ vote,” a spokesman said.
“Another referendum would be divisive and cause huge economic uncertainty at the worst possible time.”
Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, said Sturgeon was guilty of political opportunism. She said: “Nicola Sturgeon has today given up acting as first minister for all of Scotland.
“The first minister’s proposal offers Scotland the worst of all worlds. Her timetable would force people to vote blind on the biggest political decision a country could face. This is utterly irresponsible and has been taken by the first minister purely for partisan political reasons.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/nicola-sturgeon-fires-starting-gun-on-second-scottish-independence-referendum

[Jack Knave]

Hate hate hate us us us them them hate.

Your English is improving, Rhia.

[Jack Knave]

-
Yep.
And you can bet this will play into the YES camp - a hard line Tory PM with policies which seem at odds with the majority of Scots of whatever party, is not a great advert for her 'precious union'.

If this is the case then the Scots may just jump over the cliff in a vote of protest.

[Jack Knave]

apart from the lazy generalisation of 'they' that is an ad consequentiam in this position, with a poisoning of the well, and a begging question. It's like Alan Burns on speed

You do talk a load of bollocks some times. How does that relate to my sensible post?

[Nearly Sane]

You do talk a load of bollocks some times. How does that relate to my sensible post?

By what it said. Pointing out the lazy generalisation and use of fallacies in your 'sensible' post.

[Nearly Sane]

If this is the case then the Scots may just jump over the cliff in a vote of protest.

lovely non sequitur, not as good as Alan Burns or Vlad but still classily wrong

[Nearly Sane]

They are independent now because they are part of the EU and Euro. If they left the EU that would solve the boarder issue.

You think that Irish unification will happen because of the vote but you oppose Scottish independence?

[Nearly Sane]

So what is your scenario if Scotland left the UK? What would you expect to be done?

Done about what?

[jeremyp]

Surely referendums are generally caused by division rather than the other way about?

Nope. That's clearly not true, unless you are talking about division in the Conservative Party.

[Nearly Sane]

The fact is they can't use the pound if they join the EU because to join the Euro they have to have their own currency. And once they do that the value of their state reduces because the currency would have no history with the markets and so effectively their currency would be devalued, making borrowing etc. harder and so financing their economy difficult. The Scots would see a drastic fall in living standards.

You're right the SNP are doing this for ideological reasons which will take Scotland to hell and back.

It wasn't Farage's or UKIP's job to provide a plan for Brexit it was Cameron's.

actually they could use the pound - to prove tell what currency the Swedes are using?

The Euro has a history, you can look at it on the internet. It has graphs!!!!

Why are you arguing a neo liberalism globalist line on independence?

[jeremyp]

actually they could use the pound - to prove tell what currency the Swedes are using?

Sweden has its own currency, it's not using the pound.

The arguments for and against Scotland using the pound are exactly the same as they were before. Scotland could use the pound but it would have to submit to UK monetary and fiscal policy.

[Nearly Sane]

Nope. That's clearly not true, unless you are talking about division in the Conservative Party.

Didn't say it was about division in a party. The reason for this and previous Indyref was a division in the country that the Govt  party didn't mirror but the division still existed hence the vote. That the Tories mirrored the division,or were a reflection in a distorted mirror does not mean that wasn't an existing division.

[Nearly Sane]

Sweden has its own currency, it's not using the pound.

The arguments for and against Scotland using the pound are exactly the same as they were before. Scotland could use the pound but it would have to submit to UK monetary and fiscal policy.

I was commenting on the need to use the Euro, not that I am opposed to it.  Only that, Sweden shows you don't have to do that, especially in the short term.  The countries in the euro don't follow the same fiscal and monetary polucy .

[Nearly Sane]

Note I should add that I think the Vote Yes campaign  needs a better fiscal policy than last time, though the idea that there will be a brilliant unarguable economic argument  for/against  is economically  illiterate

[jeremyp]

The reason for this and previous Indyref was a division in the country that the Govt  party didn't mirror but the division still existed hence the vote. That the Tories mirrored the division,or were a reflection in a distorted mirror does not mean that wasn't an existing division.

I was talking about Brexit, not IndyRef.

I don't think IndyRef was caused by division, I think it was caused by the SNP getting enough power to make it happen. There was certainly a difference of opinion about whether it is a good thing or not, but division didn't happen until one side lost. The division will be even worse next time if the result is reversed.

[jeremyp]

I was commenting on the need to use the Euro, not that I am opposed to it.  Only that, Sweden shows you don't have to do that, especially in the short term.

The entry conditions for the EU now include a requirement to commit to joining the Euro at some point. Given that Scotland will have to find some currency to replace the pound, I think it would be a good idea for them to use the Euro, once in the EU.

The countries in the euro don't follow the same fiscal and monetary polucy .

Which is why they nearly destroyed it a couple of years ago. There is no way the UK could allow Scotland even  the possibility of doing a Greece.

[Nearly Sane]

The entry conditions for the EU now include a requirement to commit to joining the Euro at some point. Given that Scotland will have to find some currency to replace the pound, I think it would be a good idea for them to use the Euro, once in the EU.
Which is why they nearly destroyed it a couple of years ago. There is no way the UK could allow Scotland even  the possibility of doing a Greece.

indeed and it was the requirement that Sweden committed to join it.
As I said I am not opposed to it in some time but the idea that in the short term or for as long as Sweden hasn't moved is specious.

Countries in Europe  don't follow fiscal and monetary policies so the idea that this works absolutely or will do is wrong. Or are you suggesting that France and Germany follow the same fiscal and monetary policies? Because you would be wrong if you did.

[Nearly Sane]

United we stand divided we fall. Scotland would be making a big mistake to leave the Union, imo, even though this Brexit business is crazy nonsense.

out of interest, what if there was an Irish unification poll? Would it still be divided we fall?

[Anchorman]

United we stand divided we fall. Scotland would be making a big mistake to leave the Union, imo, even though this Brexit business is crazy nonsense.

- Nice cliche. Trouble is, we are NOT united, floo. Even those who accept Westminster up here have, by and large, no loyalty to it (the bowler hat and sash brigade being the exception). Most here describe themselves as Scots - even those who reject independence. The Tories carried out a poll last year; and one of the questions was "If you voted to remain within the UK in 2014, do you regard yourself as British?" The answer? YES -14% No -73% 2% seemed undecided. Yes, Iknow it's a poll, with all the caviats attached. That notwithstanding, it was a snapshot of fellings which the Tories initiated.

[jakswan]

- Nice cliche. Trouble is, we are NOT united, floo. Even those who accept Westminster up here have, by and large, no loyalty to it (the bowler hat and sash brigade being the exception). Most here describe themselves as Scots - even those who reject independence. The Tories carried out a poll last year; and one of the questions was "If you voted to remain within the UK in 2014, do you regard yourself as British?" The answer? YES -14% No -73% 2% seemed undecided. Yes, Iknow it's a poll, with all the caviats attached. That notwithstanding, it was a snapshot of fellings which the Tories initiated.

Maybe the 2% were Europeans?

Great news hopefully the Scots will have the balls to vote Yes / No (either could be relevant depending on question). Think ex-pats should get a vote this time as well, know a few living in rUK who were miffed last time.

Take back control Scotland!

[Nearly Sane]

Ireland is separate island from the island which encompasses Wales, Scotland and England. It should never have had a bit hacked off and put under British rule in the  in the first place, imo.

So it's simply a geographic question to you? And just yo note your pish misrepresents the history.

[wigginhall]

It's an argument against all acts of self-determination, isn't it?  It's what the French said in Algeria, well, for a while, that Algeria is French, and 'united we stand'.   However, the Algerians had other ideas.  See also the USA.

Another point - the stronger power often says 'united we stand'.  This has been the Russian (and Soviet) argument for centuries, that the little countries such as Latvia, are much better off under the Russian umbrella.   Again, the Latvians may disagree.

[Nearly Sane]

And in English please?

ignore the second sentence as it was a bit if a derail anyway. So is it just a question of geography to you?

[Nearly Sane]

Not just because of its geography, Ireland was invaded by the Brits; the Irish were treated abysmally by them. Whilst I would never in a million years support the IRA, I can see why that group was formed.

No, i was asking if you think Scotland should not be independent simply  because of geography?

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think Scotland, Wales and England could function independently.

Why?