2nd Indy Referendum?

[jakswan]

I'd have thought policies would be driven by ethos, and I've never said Scotland would only elect parties whose policies I agree with. It may well be that in an independent Scotland there would be some realignment of existing political parties.

Yes policies are driven by ethos and the political ethos that you disagree with is centre right wing?

So you must think that the Scottish electorate will not elect a centre-right party. Which is a solid argument. I don't think its true but its your country / future.

[jakswan]

Of course, it's depressing but the cause of it is interesting. Anyway this piece is quite good on the abuse and the tediousness of the Jimmy Krankie thing. That an op ed piece from the Telegraph called metaphorically for Nicol's head this week is sad.

To be fair, there was similar expressions about Thatcher, with even Elvis Costello singing about Tramping the Dirt Down, so the discourse has been depressing for some time.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/stop-hatred-towards-scots-after-10047185

The Krankie thing is harmless fun, the vitriol and vilification goes too far. Although Gordon has confessed its in the SNP playbook, its a pity political debate is at this low level.   

[Nearly Sane]

The Krankie thing is harmless fun, the vitriol and vilification goes too far. Although Gordon has confessed its in the SNP playbook, its a pity political debate is at this low level.

Has Gordon got a senior role in the SNP?!!? He determines their playbook?

[jeremyp]

Good use of the tu quoque fallacy.

In response to some cheap shot whining about vitriol.

[Nearly Sane]

In response to some cheap shot whining about vitriol.

and followed by another tu quoque.

[jakswan]

having respect does not preclude animosity which is again apparent in your post.

Not sure I'd use that word, I think if I was Scottish I'd be against her, being Welsh I do not like the Plids (Plaid) at all. There is a undercurrent of anti-English sentiment in Wales and a good politician could do for Wales what SNP have done for Scotland, given the small minded pathetic Welsh political establishment hopefully that never happens.

[Gordon]

The Krankie thing is harmless fun, the vitriol and vilification goes too far. Although Gordon has confessed its in the SNP playbook, its a pity political debate is at this low level.

No I didn't - I said I think vilification can be merited, therefore I think it reasonable to vilify the Tories for the Brexit shambles since it was their doing, nor have I compared the Tories with, say, comedy figures in a similar manner to comments about Nicola Sturgeon.

I also note considerable friction between the EU Leavers and Remainers separate from any issues relating to Scotland - hence the irony of TMs comments about the SNP causing division in light of her determination to press on with Brexit.   

I'm not an SNP member so I can't speak for them or their policy.

[jakswan]

Has Gordon got a senior role in the SNP?!!? He determines their playbook?

I don't think anyone knows the playbook unless you are leading the SNP, we can only form opinions.

[jakswan]

No I didn't - I said I think vilification can be merited, therefore I think it reasonable to vilify the Tories for the Brexit shambles since it was their doing, nor have I compared the Tories with, say, comedy figures in a similar manner to comments about Nicola Sturgeon.

I also note considerable friction between the EU Leavers and Remainers separate from any issues relating to Scotland - hence the irony of TMs comments about the SNP causing division in light of her determination to press on with Brexit.   

I'm not an SNP member so I can't speak for them or their policy.

So the current level of debate where people are vilified is something of merit.

[jeremyp]

and followed by another tu quoque.

You clearly failed to understand my message.

I was saying "so fucking what?" You can continue with your "tu quoques" as long as you like. It won't alter the fact that Scotlanders whining about the vitriol directed at Jimmy Krankie and Nicola Sturgeon is the height of hypocrisy.

[Gordon]

So the current level of debate where people are vilified is something of merit.

That depends surely on how it is expressed: I've made it quite clear that I vilify the Tories for their actions leading to Brexit but I haven't resorted to calling them names.

Synonyms such as disparage, denigrate and condemn also convey my view of the Tories.

[Nearly Sane]

You clearly failed to understand my message.

I was saying "so fucking what?" You can continue with your "tu quoques" as long as you like. It won't alter the fact that Scotlanders whining about the vitriol directed at Jimmy Krankie and Nicola Sturgeon is the height of hypocrisy.

Trent whose post you initially replied to isn't a 'Scotlander' and yes, you are still using a tu quoque plus an unwarranted generalization.

[jeremyp]

Trent whose post you initially replied to isn't a 'Scotlander' and yes, you are still using a tu quoque plus an unwarranted generalization.

I refer you to the first part of my previous answer.

[jakswan]

That depends surely on how it is expressed: I've made it quite clear that I vilify the Tories for their actions leading to Brexit but I haven't resorted to calling them names.

Synonyms such as disparage, denigrate and condemn also convey my view of the Tories.

Fair enough, I'm guessing its fair for someone to do the same with regard to SNP/Scexit.

Right back to Scexit, so your reason for yes vote is the political ethos is different to rUK. Got that, I'm guessing you are pro-EU though which will mean Scotland will have to go with its fiscal rules, so increased tax or austerity?

I'm guessing, as your political ethos is at the very least centre left then increased taxes?

[jeremyp]

That depends surely on how it is expressed: I've made it quite clear that I vilify the Tories for their actions leading to Brexit but I haven't resorted to calling them names.

Synonyms such as disparage, denigrate and condemn also convey my view of the Tories.

I think the language is becoming a little intemperate. Words like "vilify" imply more than deserved criticism. It's true that this whole Brexit and hence Indyref2 was caused by the Tory leader of the time embarking on a poorly thought out strategy for silencing the Eurosceptics in his party. Yes he deserves criticism and Theresa May's handling since has hardly been stellar but "vilify" has a connotation of unjust criticism. Can't we just agree that the Conservative Party has fucked us all royally up the arse?

[Gordon]

Fair enough, I'm guessing its fair for someone to do the same with regard to SNP/Scexit.

Right back to Scexit, so your reason for yes vote is the political ethos is different to rUK. Got that, I'm guessing you are pro-EU though which will mean Scotland will have to go with its fiscal rules, so increased tax or austerity?

I'm guessing, as your political ethos is at the very least centre left then increased taxes?

I was in favour of independence in 2014, so one aspect of my vilification of the Tories is the mixed messages between them and now: in 2014 we were told that voting for independence meant we'd leave the EU and this was portrayed as a proverbial 'bad thing' yet within 2 years we are to suffer this 'bad thing' at the hands of the very same people who previously appealed to us to avoid it by remaining in the UK.

So, when one considers that the primary reason for the EU referendum was to deal with Tory euro-sceptics/UKIP by shutting them up, since it was I think assumed the electorate would agree to remain the in the EU, then the Tory party deserves vilification - the referendum was advisory yet in view of the absence of plans for Brexit it seems the Tory government didn't stop to even consider the referendum result represented bad and ill-informed advice being given: they didn't know what accepting this advice would entail, but they accepted it anyway.

I'm moderately pro EU in that it is the status quo and since any decision to leave it would surely require clear and prior knowledge of the implications - this still isn't available even though we're apparently leaving. In addition the issue of immigration, which seems to be the prime xenophobic concern of the Leave brigade elsewhere in the UK, would be contrary to the interests of Scotland, as would be the loss of access the single market and we'd also lose the freedom to move and work that we now enjoy - for instance when my son's then fiance (now wife) was studying in Holland for a year he was able to work there. So, and while I'm not saying the EU is perfect, the loss of the likes of these aspects in response to the xenophobia of UKIP and some elements within the Tory party is an example of the tail wagging the dog.

I do think there is a case for taxation as an alternative to austerity, provided the case can be soundly made. 


   

[Walter]

I think the language is becoming a little intemperate. Words like "vilify" imply more than deserved criticism. It's true that this whole Brexit and hence Indyref2 was caused by the Tory leader of the time embarking on a poorly thought out strategy for silencing the Eurosceptics in his party. Yes he deserves criticism and Theresa May's handling since has hardly been stellar but "vilify" has a connotation of unjust criticism. Can't we just agree that the Conservative Party has fucked us all royally up the arse?

that was NS with his tu quoques I think !

[Gordon]

Can't we just agree that the Conservative Party has fucked us all royally up the arse?

Agreed.

[jakswan]

I was in favour of independence in 2014, so one aspect of my vilification of the Tories is the mixed messages between them and now: in 2014 we were told that voting for independence meant we'd leave the EU and this was portrayed as a proverbial 'bad thing' yet within 2 years we are to suffer this 'bad thing' at the hands of the very same people who previously appealed to us to avoid it by remaining in the UK.

The leadership of the Tory party fought as hard as they could for a remain vote. The British electorate voted in a referendum supported by British MPs, in 2014 Scotland chose to remain British.

So, when one considers that the primary reason for the EU referendum was to deal with Tory euro-sceptics/UKIP by shutting them up, since it was I think assumed the electorate would agree to remain the in the EU, then the Tory party deserves vilification - the referendum was advisory yet in view of the absence of plans for Brexit it seems the Tory government didn't stop to even consider the referendum result represented bad and ill-informed advice being given: they didn't know what accepting this advice would entail, but they accepted it anyway.

So if you get a yes for Scexit it will be advisory?

I'm moderately pro EU in that it is the status quo and since any decision to leave it would surely require clear and prior knowledge of the implications - this still isn't available even though we're apparently leaving. In addition the issue of immigration, which seems to be the prime xenophobic concern of the Leave brigade elsewhere in the UK, would be contrary to the interests of Scotland, as would be the loss of access the single market and we'd also lose the freedom to move and work that we now enjoy - for instance when my son's then fiance (now wife) was studying in Holland for a year he was able to work there. So, and while I'm not saying the EU is perfect, the loss of the likes of these aspects in response to the xenophobia of UKIP and some elements within the Tory party is an example of the tail wagging the dog.

So lets take them one by one.

1. Knowledge of the implications on an exit vote, did this not apply in 2014?
2. The single market, which one, the British one or the EU one.
3. No one knows if freedom of labour is off the table, but assuming it is then Scots will be able to work in France but not in rUK.

I do think there is a case for taxation as an alternative to austerity, provided the case can be soundly made. 

I see lets hear your case then. Bear in mind that if you tax the rich they will move very quickly.

[Anchorman]

you can't deny the visual similarity though 

I have no interest in politics, especially the yappy kind you have in Scotland!

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Being blind, I can deny the visual similarity pretty well, actually......

[Walter]

-
Being blind, I can deny the visual similarity pretty well, actually......

please forgive me......no offence....

[Anchorman]

please forgive me......no offence....

-
Not a problem.
In my situation, you meet a nice class of lamp post.
'S a bugger when they answer you back, though.....

[Nearly Sane]

Apparently it's like a different country (and that was only Edinburgh)



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39321008

[Walter]

-
Not a problem.
In my situation, you meet a nice class of lamp post.
'S a bugger when they answer you back, though.....

and beware of soft dollops on the pavement, can make a right mess of your front room carpet!

[Gordon]

The leadership of the Tory party fought as hard as they could for a remain vote. The British electorate voted in a referendum supported by British MPs, in 2014 Scotland chose to remain British.

The Tories need not have agreed a referendum in the first place: and they did for party reasons, and they did so without seemingly examining what a Leave result implied. That some wanted a Remain outcome doesn't excuse them having the referendum in the first place.

So if you get a yes for Scexit it will be advisory?

No idea - the details have yet to be agreed.

So lets take them one by one.

1. Knowledge of the implications on an exit vote, did this not apply in 2014?

In 2014 it wasn't known if there would even be a EU referendum since, iirc, it was a consequence of the result of the 2015 GE. In 2014 the pressing EU issue was 'leave the UK and you leave the EU'.Had the 2015 GE produced another Tory/Lib Dem coalition I doubt the EU referendum would have occurred.
 

2. The single market, which one, the British one or the EU one.

In terms of Brexit the EU one, and should Scotland become independent then both would be subject to negotiation.

3. No one knows if freedom of labour is off the table, but assuming it is then Scots will be able to work in France but not in rUK.

Again, subject to negotiation.

I see lets hear your case then. Bear in mind that if you tax the rich they will move very quickly.

The decision on variable rates and sources of taxation is part of the political governance process and involves an assessment of the balance between revenue requirements and preparedness to pay and what expenditure will be allowed, refused or constrained - these details in respect of an independent Scotland are no more clear now than are the details of the intended negotiations surrounding Brexit.

In both cases flesh on bones is needed: Brexit first.