2nd Indy Referendum?

[jakswan]

Richard Murphy on the issue of the GERS (Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland) figures

http://www.thenational.scot/politics/15169186.Professor_Richard_Murphy__Why_you_can_t_rely_on_GERS_figures_to_judge_Scotland_s_financial_state/?ref=twtrec

That if true has been spun "Scotland will be have more tax or austerity come a yes vote" and I have no doubt the SNP will spin it the other way. Very interesting article though!

[Nearly Sane]

That if true has been spun "Scotland will be have more tax or austerity come a yes vote" and I have no doubt the SNP will spin it the other way. Very interesting article though!

Essentially this points out that the use if the figures is inappropriate either way. I understand the demand for facts on what would happen but I don't think that it is possible in many ways.

[jakswan]

Essentially this points out that the use if the figures is inappropriate either way. I understand the demand for facts on what would happen but I don't think that it is possible in many ways.

Other views are available though.

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/richard-murphy-gers-denier.html

No.1 result in google even though its a bog standard blogger site. I'm no economist and won't be voting in indyref2 anyway.

[Nearly Sane]

Other views are available though.

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/richard-murphy-gers-denier.html

No.1 result in google even though its a bog standard blogger site. I'm no economist and won't be voting in indyref2 anyway.

Good lin and it makes many valid points. It illustrates the problem for most if not all voters, that there is a kernel of truth in Michael Gove's comment on experts - despite appearances to the contrary they are in the area of politics subject to their own biases, and for the rest of us it is often difficult to see what the truth is when they disagree. Further economics is despite all the numbers not a science, though it is often dismal.

[Jack Knave]

Mostly I agree but Nicola had offered discussions about leavingthe EU and staying in UK,  turned down, offers to discuss the timing of this referendum, turned down. It creates a narrative that plays well.

But I don't think a significant number of the Scots are buying it though, and the Big Fish knows it.

[Jack Knave]

I'd have thought policies would be driven by ethos, and I've never said Scotland would only elect parties whose policies I agree with. It may well be that in an independent Scotland there would be some realignment of existing political parties.

But you Scots don't have the money to live out your wet dreams. You may whinge about how the Tories have imposed this and that but what would you lot do if and when you get your independence?

[Jack Knave]

I was in favour of independence in 2014, so one aspect of my vilification of the Tories is the mixed messages between them and now: in 2014 we were told that voting for independence meant we'd leave the EU and this was portrayed as a proverbial 'bad thing' yet within 2 years we are to suffer this 'bad thing' at the hands of the very same people who previously appealed to us to avoid it by remaining in the UK.

So, when one considers that the primary reason for the EU referendum was to deal with Tory euro-sceptics/UKIP by shutting them up, since it was I think assumed the electorate would agree to remain the in the EU, then the Tory party deserves vilification - the referendum was advisory yet in view of the absence of plans for Brexit it seems the Tory government didn't stop to even consider the referendum result represented bad and ill-informed advice being given: they didn't know what accepting this advice would entail, but they accepted it anyway.

I'm moderately pro EU in that it is the status quo and since any decision to leave it would surely require clear and prior knowledge of the implications - this still isn't available even though we're apparently leaving. In addition the issue of immigration, which seems to be the prime xenophobic concern of the Leave brigade elsewhere in the UK, would be contrary to the interests of Scotland, as would be the loss of access the single market and we'd also lose the freedom to move and work that we now enjoy - for instance when my son's then fiance (now wife) was studying in Holland for a year he was able to work there. So, and while I'm not saying the EU is perfect, the loss of the likes of these aspects in response to the xenophobia of UKIP and some elements within the Tory party is an example of the tail wagging the dog.

I do think there is a case for taxation as an alternative to austerity, provided the case can be soundly made. 
 

That confirms what I think of you.

[jeremyp]

Unless you are against the principle of self determination

This is a nonsensical concept except on the level of the individual. In what way will Scottish independence make the people of Scotland more self determining than they are now? Their lives will still be ruled by a small handful of people who live far away (from most Scots). A factory worker in Glasgow probably has more in common with a factory worker in Manchester than Nicola Sturgeon and her ilk.

The same applies to Brexit. Apparently,it's a great victory for our self determination (the UK's this time) but I look at our political landscape and the state of Her Majesty's Opposition and I realise we are likely stuck with the current shower for at least eight years. I don't really feel like I'm determining myself very much.

[Nearly Sane]

Good article on 10 years of SNP govt and next steps


http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/03/24/ten-years-of-the-snp-and-beyond/

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

A factory worker in Glasgow probably has more in common with a factory worker in Manchester than Nicola Sturgeon and her ilk.

Damn!! What's that line from the Godfather 3 "just when I think I am out they drag me back in".

The only thing that is going to change my mind over this Indyref 2 is if the whole country gets behind Corbyn, and that is full on Corbyn, scrap Trident, renationalise railway, water, gas, electricity.

But ( always a but ) I see this Indyref 2 as a chance to show that Tory thinking is dead thinking, the Tory party should go away and never be heard from again, small government thinking, capitalism is a failure, we need a government with a backbone, a government that is in touch with all the people, rich and poor, a government that takes charge of the infrastructure and does not hand it to private investors.

To end my little Monday morning rantette, we need a government who will increase taxes, if you want a country to run properly you need to pay for it and that also means making the giant conglomerates pay their taxes to our coffers not siphoned off to some off shore tax haven.

Gonnagle.

[Anchorman]

 OK; If this mess controlled by Westminster is supposed to be an 'equal and incorporating union' (as per the 1707 Act), why is this woman my country did not elect, leader of a government we wouldn't waste on a recycling bin, contemplating using measures drawn from a parliamentary system which supposedly no longer exists? So much for her 'precious union,' then. http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/781048/Theresa-May-Henry-VIII-convert-EU-law-Brexit

[jeremyp]

OK; If this mess controlled by Westminster is supposed to be an 'equal and incorporating union' (as per the 1707 Act), why is this woman my country did not elect, leader of a government we wouldn't waste on a recycling bin, contemplating using measures drawn from a parliamentary system which supposedly no longer exists? So much for her 'precious union,' then. http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/781048/Theresa-May-Henry-VIII-convert-EU-law-Brexit

I think you'll find that it is an equal and incorporating union in that Theresa May is going to shaft all of us equally.

[Anchorman]

If the Westminster rabble want to antagonise us further, then by dragging up tripe from a cretin who was never either ruler or claimed  authority over this nation (whilst slaughtering many of our citizens, then she isn't doing too well on saving her 'precious union', is she?

[Bubbles]

If the Westminster rabble want to antagonise us further, then by dragging up tripe from a cretin who was never either ruler or claimed  authority over this nation (whilst slaughtering many of our citizens, then she isn't doing too well on saving her 'precious union', is she?

Who's been slaughtering who?

[Nearly Sane]

Who's been slaughtering who?

henry the eighth

[Anchorman]

The legislation of Henry VIII - definately diddly squat to do with either Scotland or britain, Rose. The Tudor maniac slaughteresd quite a few Scots - after Flodden - in an insane attempt to have Mary of Scotland married to the brat who would become Edward VI of England. Google 'Rough Wooing'.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

So in order to force Brexit, the Tories rely on that well known champion of democracy, tolerance, & free speech, King Henry VIII.

As far as I am concerned, let Scotland find her own place in the world. It will be a better place than those left behind will have to inhabit.

[wigginhall]

OK; If this mess controlled by Westminster is supposed to be an 'equal and incorporating union' (as per the 1707 Act), why is this woman my country did not elect, leader of a government we wouldn't waste on a recycling bin, contemplating using measures drawn from a parliamentary system which supposedly no longer exists? So much for her 'precious union,' then. http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/781048/Theresa-May-Henry-VIII-convert-EU-law-Brexit

This is one of the key differences from Ireland, isn't it?   I think Ireland wasn't defined as a colony, but many Irish people have seen it as colonized, and hence resisted, including by force of arms.    But Scotland is explicitly in 'union' with England, which makes May's haughty attitude even more bizarre.   In any union, (e.g. marriage), don't  both parties have the right to split?   Well, of course, so do colonies, under various rights to self-determination. 

[Jack Knave]

OK; If this mess controlled by Westminster is supposed to be an 'equal and incorporating union' (as per the 1707 Act), why is this woman my country did not elect, leader of a government we wouldn't waste on a recycling bin, contemplating using measures drawn from a parliamentary system which supposedly no longer exists? So much for her 'precious union,' then. http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/781048/Theresa-May-Henry-VIII-convert-EU-law-Brexit

That still doesn't explain the situation in detail, but if this Henry VIII bill is so not liked etc. why wasn't it removed years ago.

[Nearly Sane]

That still doesn't explain the situation in detail, but if this Henry VIII bill is so not liked etc. why wasn't it removed years ago.

http://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/henry-viii-clauses/

[Anchorman]

Because the burach which is the so-called united kingdom parliament is no such thing - just the English pseudodemocracy with bits added on, rather than the 'new' parliament the 1707 Act said was supposed to happen.

[Jack Knave]

Because the burach which is the so-called united kingdom parliament is no such thing - just the English pseudodemocracy with bits added on, rather than the 'new' parliament the 1707 Act said was supposed to happen.

Look at the EU. The stronger, richer countries have taken charge. That is the fact of the matter and is just life. Do you really think Scotland would get a better, fairer deal being in the EU. For your future in the EU just look at Greece.

[Nearly Sane]

Look at the EU. The stronger, richer countries have taken charge. That is the fact of the matter and is just life. Do you really think Scotland would get a better, fairer deal being in the EU. For your future in the EU just look at Greece.

and hello to the tu quoque fallacy, and ignoring the point post from Jack Knave. Effectively your post is a non sequitur to the post you answered, why was that?

[Jack Knave]

http://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/henry-viii-clauses/

So they are adding this to the Great Repeal Bill? Or was it added to the EEC 1972 act at the time and May's using that?

[Nearly Sane]

So they are adding this to the Great Repeal Bill? Or was it added to the EEC 1972 act at the time and May's using that?

it is being added to the GRP.