2nd Indy Referendum?

[jakswan]

Well there is their history in Scotland, such as Thatcher's imposition of the poll tax, then there are the more recent issues from Cameron's spurious assurances to us in 2014, his putting the Tory party first by having the referendum, and of course the shambles of Brexit - and of course they only have one MP here!

But you don't know that Scotland wouldn't vote in the Tory party in a future independent Scotland in the future and introduce similar policies.

The 'shambles of Brexit' is different to the 'shambles of Scexit'?

Then there is local stuff, like the DWP seemingly closing job-centres here by looking at Google-maps, the sole Tory MP in Scotland (so the only option for Scottish Secretary) telling is what is best for us (which is highly ironic bearing in mind his sole Tory MP in Scotland position) and the unedifying sight of Ruth Davidson's recent conversion into Mother Theresa's pet poodle. 

As above, you don't like temporary people and policies so you want to permanently leave and for all you know then be ruled over by people with pretty much the same policies. 

Sorry it is incoherent, if you argued that Scotland has a different political compass that would be logical.

Ahh.. I see, are you suggesting that the Union is too big and a smaller country like Scotland will have politicians that are more accountable... That makes sense... although the EU...

[quote
So in addition to my settled disdain for the Tories the implosion of Labour just about everywhere seems to remove the possibility of any UK-wide alternative party of government for the foreseeable future, so  thanks to the voting patterns elsewhere in rUK Scotland is stuck with a permanent Tory government that has minimal support here - so no thanks.
[/quote]

What really has shot Labours fox is Scotland's support for the SNP, Corbyn could go tomorrow without support from Scotland a new leader would not make much difference.

Actually I think the LibDems might get a say in that, forcing another coalition. In fact if you wanted to prevent the 'shambles of Brexit' this is your best chance, the SNP main game is an independent Scotland if it comes at the price of EU membership I dare say they will pay that price.

[Gordon]

Sorry it is incoherent, if you argued that Scotland has a different political compass that would be logical.

That is surely what I've emphasised: the political compass is already different here as is indicated by both the last general election and EU referendum results.

[jakswan]

That is surely what I've emphasised: the political compass is already different here as is indicated by both the last general election and EU referendum results.

No the political compass refers to ideology, which informs some policy. Some policy you disagree with, policy can change ideology doesn't.

So if you disagree with centre right ideology and claim that Scotland will never vote in a centre-right party that is coherent, I don't think its true but we can debate that. To suggest in that Govts in an indy Scotland will only ever introduce policies that you like is just unrealistic. 

It is also coherent to argue that policies can only be introduced in Scotland by Govts directly held to account by the Scottish electorate, however that appears to me to be inconsistent with wanting to remain in the EU.

[Gordon]

No the political compass refers to ideology, which informs some policy. Some policy you disagree with, policy can change ideology doesn't.

Might changes in ideology be reflected in voting patterns within Scotland in relation to changes to the representation in both Holyrood and Westminster of late, and then there is the result of the EU referendum in Scotland to consider (which it seems has been noted elsewhere in the EU).

So if you disagree with centre right ideology and claim that Scotland will never vote in a centre-right party that is coherent, I don't think its true but we can debate that. To suggest in that Govts in an indy Scotland will only ever introduce policies that you like is just unrealistic. 

Which is an unknown, just like the possibility of the LibDems being in another coalition as you suggested earlier. We can only anticipate based on an assessment of what seems likely - as things stand the UK-wide parties aren't strong here even though the Tories have benefitted from the implosion of Labour and the LibDems being on the naughty step for getting into bed with the Tories. I suspect the LibDems will recover better than the Tories.

It is also coherent to argue that policies can only be introduced in Scotland by Govts directly held to account by the Scottish electorate, however that appears to me to be inconsistent with wanting to remain in the EU.

Remember much here is already fully devolved: the NHS, justice and education, and there is now a difference in when higher income tax applies. Voters here see the EU more positively than voters elsewhere in rUK, and the negativity from both some Tories and UKIP is less relevant here.

[jakswan]

Might changes in ideology be reflected in voting patterns within Scotland in relation to changes to the representation in both Holyrood and Westminster of late, and then there is the result of the EU referendum in Scotland to consider (which it seems has been noted elsewhere in the EU).

That is a fair argument, I don't think it is true, I suspect it is a case that the Tories have been demonised by the SNP, which is a good tactical move on their part but doesn't mean that Scotland necessarily has a different political compass to rUK.

Which is an unknown, just like the possibility of the LibDems being in another coalition as you suggested earlier. We can only anticipate based on an assessment of what seems likely - as things stand the UK-wide parties aren't strong here even though the Tories have benefitted from the implosion of Labour and the LibDems being on the naughty step for getting into bed with the Tories. I suspect the LibDems will recover better than the Tories.

Unknown? I can't believe that you would find a party in which you agreed 100% with every policy.

Remember much here is already fully devolved: the NHS, justice and education, and there is now a difference in when higher income tax applies. Voters here see the EU more positively than voters elsewhere in rUK, and the negativity from both some Tories and UKIP is less relevant here.

Yes the EU are not English so handing power that way is fine it seems.

Right so you want to vote leave because you don't like the policies of the UK government but that doesn't apply because many things have been devolved?

There are UKIP/Tory nationalists and there are SNP nationalists, the SNP are better politicians but it is still 'negative' as you put it, in my opinion.

[Gordon]

That is a fair argument, I don't think it is true, I suspect it is a case that the Tories have been demonised by the SNP, which is a good tactical move on their part but doesn't mean that Scotland necessarily has a different political compass to rUK.

Recent election and the EU referendum results suggest otherwise;

Unknown? I can't believe that you would find a party in which you agreed 100% with every policy.

Neither do I, but the emerging politics of an independent Scotland is an unknown.

Yes the EU are not English so handing power that way is fine it seems.

Why mention 'English' specifically: I'm not anti-English - I did all my secondary school education in England and I've been on holiday there several times. However, voters there do seem to rate the Tories!

Right so you want to vote leave because you don't like the policies of the UK government but that doesn't apply because many things have been devolved?

Not everything is devolved, so the political compass of the UK government remains relevant (Brexit being the obvious example).

There are UKIP/Tory nationalists and there are SNP nationalists, the SNP are better politicians but it is still 'negative' as you put it, in my opinion.

I think the UKIP/Tory nationalists are negative since they seem inclined to dismiss the different perspective here in Scotland by clinging to the 'the people have spoken' mantra whilst ignoring what people in Scotland have said.

I can't see this changing for as long as voters in rUK support the Tories, which as things stand seems to be for the long-term - so I want out of the UK.

[Anchorman]

Hold it. What's this about SNP demonising the Tories? I'm happy to say Labour, the Lib Dems, and anyone else with half a brain up here were very happily demonising the Tories before SNP rose to power in Holyrood. Nice to see at least some unity up here, then.

[jakswan]

Hold it. What's this about SNP demonising the Tories? I'm happy to say Labour, the Lib Dems, and anyone else with half a brain up here were very happily demonising the Tories before SNP rose to power in Holyrood. Nice to see at least some unity up here, then.

Yes seems to be welcomed in Scotland, I'm a Times man the Daily Mail style of the SNP is a reason to support vote leave on Scexit.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes seems to be welcomed in Scotland, I'm a Times man the Daily Mail style of the SNP is a reason to support vote leave on Scexit.

excellent irony there.

[jakswan]

excellent irony there.

Nope. The divide and rule toxic nature of SNP politics is a valid reason to want Scotland out.

[Nearly Sane]

Watching the Scottish Labour broadcast last night for the council elections on Thursday, apparently I am voting about Indyref2, the NHS, and overall education policy. Pity none of those are are in the remit of the council. So far I have received three leaflets for the council elections, one from the Tories which tells me they are all about indyref2 again, no mention of any council activities, one from the SNP which covered urban regeneration and that most council of all topics, bin collection, and one from the Greens which mentioned various initiatives in the ward I live in that they want to introduce.

[Anchorman]

Watching the Scottish Labour broadcast last night for the council elections on Thursday, apparently I am voting about Indyref2, the NHS, and overall education policy. Pity none of those are are in the remit of the council. So far I have received three leaflets for the council elections, one from the Tories which tells me they are all about indyref2 again, no mention of any council activities, one from the SNP which covered urban regeneration and that most council of all topics, bin collection, and one from the Greens which mentioned various initiatives in the ward I live in that they want to introduce.

-
Yep.
I had the same-ish selection drop through my letterbox - with the added addition of a a Lib Dem leaflet which landed on the same day May dropped her GE bombshell. That leaflet also mentioned indyref 2, Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond (@), and one small paragraph naming the local council candidates.
Mind you, the only local canvassers who have actually bothered to go round the streets are the SNP local authority candidates' campaign.
Says it all, really.

[Ricky Spanish]

Had a Dumbass Labour tract popped through the letterbox which claimed and I quote:

"Aberdeen has been deprived of almost £400 million in funding by the SNP Government in Holyrood over the past five years.

The Granite City has always been a cash cow for the central belt. It's time for the people of Aberdeen to get a fairer deal.

We pay more in income tax, council tax and business rates than anywhere else in the country, yet we are the lowest funded local authority in Scotland.

The SNP is ripping you off.

If Aberdeen Labour is elected on May 4th, we promise to continue the fight for a fairer funding settlement.

Vote Aberdeen Labour on May 4th and stop Nicola Sturgeon swindling our citizens."

Which is a heap of bullshit - Aberdeen council is run by a Labour-led coalition and seems to be ready to squander millions they are going to receive from something known as the Aberdeen City Region Deal which is valued to be worth £826.2 million over a ten year period.

Significant investment is being provided by UK Government (£125m). Scottish Government (£125m). Aberdeen City and Aberdeenshire Councils £20,000. Universities £23,500. Private Sector £485,450. Other economic partners £47,250 - Total £826,200.

[Anchorman]

.......and they're always willing to pay for redevelopment projects on land that just happens to be owned by a Labour cooncilor and his faither.........

[Nearly Sane]

I fear the council election results in Scotland have a stronger whiff of Ulsterfication than previously. Not that it had ever been entirely absent but it now looks way more obvious.

[Anchorman]

I fear the council election results in Scotland have a stronger whiff of Ulsterfication than previously. Not that it had ever been entirely absent but it now looks way more obvious.

I sincerely hope the future is absolutely, definately and completely NOT Orange.
Mind you, two Tory candidates in my area were elected - both of whom appeared to be Billyites with about as much grasp of politics, whether local or national, as a Pot Noodle - and nearly as much intelligence.

[Anchorman]

 From another site..... "If you end up having to vote Tory to save the union; What does that say about the union you are trying to save?"

[Ricky Spanish]

Can I just say I am a life-long Labour supporter who is ashamed to say voted for Tory Blair before realising that was a mistake...

So my vote will always be socialist based...

I will always vote for Independence from Westminster rule regardless of the bent of the party promoting it, Scottish Labour is shooting themselves in the foot following the Blairite stance of the numpties down sowf..  so have totally fucked themselves in Scotland.. The only party left open for the Yoonatics is the "Conservative and UNIONIST Party". Dumbassed Orange lodge twats.....

[Anchorman]

Unfortunately, the unionists Tories - both red and blue - have Billyite councillors elected. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15270068.Orange_Order_elected_to_councils_as_Labour_and_Tory_members/

[Anchorman]

"Wings over Scotland" is a provocative, non party Independence site. However, here's a link to a story charting Labour's clarity - or not - regarding a second referendum. https://wingsoverscotland.com/scottish-labour-indyref-clarity-grows/

[floo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40415457

[Nearly Sane]

So instead of following immediately any Brexit deal, it will follow any Brexit deal maybe sometime.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I seem to recall the Dalriadan contingent on this forum once very comfortable and smugly assured the land in which they lived was largely empty and immune from Tories and was anyway on it's way out of the union.

How times change.

[Nearly Sane]

I seem to recall the Dalriadan contingent on this forum once very comfortable and smugly assured the land in which they lived was largely empty and immune from Tories and was anyway on it's way out of the union.

How times change.

Stop lying

[Gordon]

I seem to recall the Dalriadan contingent on this forum once very comfortable and smugly assured the land in which they lived was largely empty and immune from Tories and was anyway on it's way out of the union.

How times change.

Thing is Vlad, iirc re. your place of birth, you are one of us 'Daldriadans' too!.