2nd Indy Referendum?

[Anchorman]

Death of democracy? Good comment from the Dug. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/11/04/when-democracy-becomes-a-sham/

[jeremyp]

Death of democracy? Good comment from the Dug. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/11/04/when-democracy-becomes-a-sham/

Something weird went on with that link. To all intents and purposes, it looks like a massive and broken Facebook link. However, when I clicked "quote" to tell you the link is broken, it resolved itself to

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/11/04/when-democracy-becomes-a-sham/

which is perfectly fine.

ETA: I get it now. You fixed the link yourself just before I hit the quote button.

[Nearly Sane]

Death of democracy? Good comment from the Dug. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/11/04/when-democracy-becomes-a-sham/

There is something disingenuous though about the use of landslide here, since a landslide in seats isn't a landslide in votes because of FPTP. The SNP could get 55+ seats on 40% of the vote. Now that isn't to say there isn't a huge wodge of hypocrisy in the other parties who were they to get a similar 'landslide' at WM as a whole would be proclaiming that as just the bestest landest slidiest landslide.

Part of people's issues with what democracy is is the continual hypocrisy of parties.

[jeremyp]

Death of democracy? Good comment from the Dug. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/11/04/when-democracy-becomes-a-sham/

Yeah, it's bullshit.

[ippy]

How many referendums will they have on the same subject? Best of threes or something?!!   

How about one more on Brexit then?!

Take a look at the BBC's reporting now they are legally obliged to treat all of the parties up for election equally, it'l be interesting to see how the manage to change their presentation process without making it look too obvious how their previously continual biased presentation has been against anything that supports leaving the EU.

Regards, ippy.

[Gordon]

Take a look at the BBC's reporting now they are legally obliged to treat all of the parties up for election equally, it'l be interesting to see how the manage to change their presentation process without making it look too obvious how their previously continual biased presentation has been against anything that supports leaving the EU.

Regards, ippy.

I'm more concerned that the views of Scotland are properly represented: most of us aren't keen on Brexit, ippy, so we need to make sure that other parts of the UK are fully aware of this when they bang on about 'the country'.

I'm sure you can appreciate our concern - hence we need indyref2, and hopefully the UK becomes your problem and not ours, and you can Brexit until the cows come home.

[Nearly Sane]

Take a look at the BBC's reporting now they are legally obliged to treat all of the parties up for election equally, it'l be interesting to see how the manage to change their presentation process without making it look too obvious how their previously continual biased presentation has been against anything that supports leaving the EU.

Regards, ippy.

You need to show evidence of bias rather than assert it. Also you don't understand election rules - so for example it is perfectly within election rules for the BBC to have a debate with Johnson and Corbyn and not invite the others.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm more concerned that the views of Scotland are properly represented: most of us aren't keen on Brexit, ippy, so we need to make sure that other parts of the UK are fully aware of this when they bang on about 'the country'.

I'm sure you can appreciate our concern - hence we need indyref2, and hopefully the UK becomes your problem and not ours, and you can Brexit until the cows come home.

There is a huge issue here though that the constitutional settlement makes a nonsense of this. You can't sensibly have a UK election where you need a minimum of 320 seats (assuming Sinn Fein as a 6/7 seats) to form a majority and then treat a party standing in 59 as just as likely to form a govt as parties standing in enough seats to form a govt.

[Robbie]

Ippy several times you've criticised the Beeb for bias. I honestly can't see it and I do look at quite a few BBC programmes.

[Gordon]

There is a huge issue here though that the constitutional settlement makes a nonsense of this. You can't sensibly have a UK election where you need a minimum of 320 seats (assuming Sinn Fein as a 6/7 seats) to form a majority and then treat a party standing in 59 as just as likely to form a govt as parties standing in enough seats to form a govt.

Indeed, that is true, hence given the direction of travel in the electorate in large parts of England as regards Brexit, and given the numbers involved, I think if Brexit goes ahead then Scotland needs to be free of the UK.

The odd thing here is that in UK terms the SNP have more seats than the Lib-Dems - perhaps the idea of UK-wide parties having some kind of precedence is becoming problematic, where the Tory party is a minority party in Scotland.

[Nearly Sane]

Arguably there should be Scotland, NI and Wales debates. And them some Uk wide debate but I am not sure how you judge who should be in it.

[Gordon]

Me neither: possibly whatever happens with Brexit, either way, in tandem with this GE, will indicate what happens next since there are various combinations that could be problematic: if Brexit happens and the Tories form the next government then I think indyref2 would see are different result from in 2014, if Brexit happens and the DUP lose influence in NI then perhaps a border poll becomes more likely than not, and if Brexit doesn't happen then probably Labour are in government and there may be a reaction to that in England (mainly).

If the UK is to survive I suspect that FPTP needs to be replaced.

[Nearly Sane]

Mmm I think if FPTP is replaced, it makes break up more likely

[ippy]

Ippy several times you've criticised the Beeb for bias. I honestly can't see it and I do look at quite a few BBC programmes.

It's not just me Robin, try  these three sources, Lord Pearson cuts through the Brexit betrayal, Robin Aitken on BBC Bias, Rod Liddle Live: the great Brexit betrayal -- The Brendan O'Neill Show; all available via YouTube.

No doubt someone or another on this thread'll be condemning all of them as mad, liars or something similar but listen out for L Pearson's figures for three percent, if he were 10% or more out it'd still be damning for the BBC's figures.

Regards, ippy.

[Robbie]

That's always happened ippy and always will. I don't care what anyway says or thinks - they may have an agenda or been offended by something - I do not see evidence of bias in the BBC.
I remember a good view years ago some people saying the BBC was anti religion particularly anti Christianity. I couldn't see that then either and I do look at these issues carefully.

The BBC is pretty neutral but like anything, it isn't perfect.

[ippy]

That's always happened ippy and always will. I don't care what anyway says or thinks - they may have an agenda or been offended by something - I do not see evidence of bias in the BBC.
I remember a good view years ago some people saying the BBC was anti religion particularly anti Christianity. I couldn't see that then either and I do look at these issues carefully.

The BBC is pretty neutral but like anything, it isn't perfect.

'I do look at these issues carefully'.

I was going to reply Robbie but in your case words fail me, I give up?

Regards, ippy.

[ippy]

I'm more concerned that the views of Scotland are properly represented: most of us aren't keen on Brexit, ippy, so we need to make sure that other parts of the UK are fully aware of this when they bang on about 'the country'.

I'm sure you can appreciate our concern - hence we need indyref2, and hopefully the UK becomes your problem and not ours, and you can Brexit until the cows come home.

Yes I can see your point and have certain amount of sympathy for it but what has that got to do with the BBC's wholesale rather obvious, (unless you don't want to see it), bias for remain?

Regards, ippy.

[jeremyp]

Yes I can see your point and have certain amount of sympathy for it but what has that got to do with the BBC's wholesale rather obvious, (unless you don't want to see it), bias for remain?

Regards, ippy.

Actually, the BBC has a bias for Brexit, if anything. It's like giving equal time to Andrew Wakefield. Now, let's all shut up about this so the thread can return to topic.

[Robbie]

Ippy - fair enough. In the grand scheme of things our opinion of the BBC is not that important.

[ippy]

Actually, the BBC has a bias for Brexit, if anything. It's like giving equal time to Andrew Wakefield. Now, let's all shut up about this so the thread can return to topic.

Of course the BBC wouldn't seem to have a bias to you I can understand that.

Regards, ippy.

[SweetPea]

There is nothing new about BBC bias it is well-known.

Here is an interesting interview with ex-BBC journalist Robin Aitken who has written two books on the subject.

How BBC Bias Works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aucDmK5E4bU&t=1378s

John Humphrys also has a similar view.

[ippy]

There is nothing new about BBC bias it is well-known.

Here is an interesting interview with ex-BBC journalist Robin Aitken who has written two books on the subject.

How BBC Bias Works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aucDmK5E4bU&t=1378s

John Humphrys also has a similar view.

Anybody that doesn't see the bias the BBC has for remaining doesn't want to see it, they, the BBC, don't even try to hide their bias.

Regatrds, ippy

[Robbie]

SweetPea, good to see you!
I spent a long time a bit earlier composing a post in reply to you including links but somehow I lost it! Drat. Nevertheless when that happens I adopt a fatalistic attitude, 'it wasn't meant to be ' :-) (or else I'm too lazy to do it all again).

If you have time - anyone - do watch and listen to the Nigel Farage interview with Trump on LBC last week. It was funny in a way, a mutual admiration society, lots of fawning :-) and DT saying stupid things. Such as:- if Farage and BlowJob joined forces they would be powerful leaders & that would be the ideal scenario for Britain (according to the Donald). He waffles away. At least Nigel, much as I dislike his politics, knows how to speak eloquently, ask questions, steer a conversation and keep the audience interested.  Sheesh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7WsHoHgUP8

[Aruntraveller]

Anybody that doesn't see the bias the BBC has for remaining doesn't want to see it, they, the BBC, don't even try to hide their bias.

Regatrds, ippy

Yeah, yeah. Your own bias is distorting your judgement:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17631396.bbc-has-explaining-to-do-over-record-farage-question-time-appearance/

[SweetPea]

SweetPea, good to see you!
I spent a long time a bit earlier composing a post in reply to you including links but somehow I lost it! Drat. Nevertheless when that happens I adopt a fatalistic attitude, 'it wasn't meant to be ' :-) (or else I'm too lazy to do it all again).

If you have time - anyone - do watch and listen to the Nigel Farage interview with Trump on LBC last week. It was funny in a way, a mutual admiration society, lots of fawning :-) and DT saying stupid things. Such as:- if Farage and BlowJob joined forces they would be powerful leaders & that would be the ideal scenario for Britain (according to the Donald). He waffles away. At least Nigel, much as I dislike his politics, knows how to speak eloquently, ask questions, steer a conversation and keep the audience interested.  Sheesh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7WsHoHgUP8

Hello Robbie, good to see you too, hope you are keeping well.

Yes, I have seen the Farage/Trump conversation on LBC. I do watch LBC videos quite often and actually caught that particular one live. It was a real surprise, and it also seemed as though we were eavesdropping on two mates having a chat. They are, I believe good friends. It was probably deliberate of Farage to arrange the telephone call as an offset to launching his party's election campaign the following day. Some folk would be in awe?? I agree with you on Trump's waffling and Farage's delivery being clear and concise. Again, whatever you think of his politics he is a great orator.