Author Topic: 2nd Indy Referendum?  (Read 59206 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #625 on: March 07, 2021, 11:36:01 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/07/most-scots-would-back-remaining-in-uk-new-poll-suggests


Funny how things change so quickly.
Not sure it's been that quick. Given what's been happening with the Salmond inquiry, I am struggling to understand why it has not moved more. To be honest, I think the success of the vaccination programme has had a substantial effect in the change.

Aruntraveller

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #626 on: March 07, 2021, 11:39:37 AM »
Yes, but the pattern seems to be that we now tolerate worse and worse.

Is this in general terms or specifically to do with the Scottish question?

I, as always, feel an outsider on the Scottish Independence issue so I like to tread warily.

As I think was discussed upthread or maybe elsewhere, the choice facing Scotland is not an enviable one. There are no easy options for them, this probably explains why the polls remain so tight, and with the latest impenetrable goings on at Holyrood, also volatile.

On a more general note - yes, we are tolerating worse and worse, but people vote very often for what they perceive as being the least worst option and Boris and co. persuaded enough people that they were it.

Have they been hoodwinked? Absolutely.

Would you as an employer take on Boris in any job? Absolutely not.

Yet here we are.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #627 on: March 07, 2021, 12:00:47 PM »
Is this in general terms or specifically to do with the Scottish question?

I, as always, feel an outsider on the Scottish Independence issue so I like to tread warily.

As I think was discussed upthread or maybe elsewhere, the choice facing Scotland is not an enviable one. There are no easy options for them, this probably explains why the polls remain so tight, and with the latest impenetrable goings on at Holyrood, also volatile.

On a more general note - yes, we are tolerating worse and worse, but people vote very often for what they perceive as being the least worst option and Boris and co. persuaded enough people that they were it.

Have they been hoodwinked? Absolutely.

Would you as an employer take on Boris in any job? Absolutely not.

Yet here we are.
.
For me, the situation is this. Since 1979 Conservatism has veered away from the wartime and postwar concensus as to what it means to be British whereas I see Scotland retaining these values. They never eventually gave up Conservatism and have been divided about breaking up the union.

Has anyone taken a poll of how many Tories want Scottish independence. The last poll seemed to be in favour and now the majority seem to want to vote Tory.

If Scottish independence does not occur then the chapter entitled ''their finest hour'' has well and truly ended.


Gordon

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #628 on: March 07, 2021, 01:47:06 PM »
The animosity between the Tories and the SNP has always been there, and is especially intense currently - as was obvious from Margaret Mitchell's approach to her questioning of Nicola Sturgeon - and with an election due I'm not surprised that the other parties are seeing an opportunity and taking it: after all, to use some local vernacular, the events around the Salmond situation are very much the 'talk of the steamie': for now.

Having conceded that they (the Scottish government) made a hash of the Salmond situation the key issue now is whether or not Nicola Sturgeon is deemed (via the other investigation) to have broken the ministerial code: if so, she may resign but she may decide to tough it out until Holyrood prorogues in around 3 weeks time, and if she is found to have not broken the ministerial code then she'll tough out whatever this committee reports until Holyrood prorogues - and at that point election campaigning starts.

The Tories may well use these events in their campaigning, but of course they are the party of Brexit and of Boris the Liar so while they are currently in attack-mode on a single issue (Salmond etc) they will have to deal with other matters during the campaign and Dross doesn't appear to me to be much of an asset to them, and he'll have to defend the SNP attacks on the Tory Brexit (we in Scotland didn't vote for either Brexit or for a Tory government), the Tories funnelling dosh to Tory-supporting areas, their undermining of Holyrood via their 'Internal Market' bill etc etc.

I'll be voting SNP, and I hope the Tories get trashed here.   
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 02:28:19 PM by Gordon »

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #630 on: March 23, 2021, 05:56:34 PM »

Anchorman

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #631 on: March 23, 2021, 06:32:25 PM »
This will undoubtedly change Anchorman's opinion on independence  ;)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9389649/Prince-William-Lord-High-Commissioner-General-Assembly-Church-Scotland.html
     

Oh, aye.....right.
Michty me, jings, crivvens, help ma boab.......
Just as well the Lord High Commissioner has no authority in the Kirk, then.
Even where he sits - a box outside the floor of the Assembly looking down on proceedings - is there to show that he/she has no part in Assembly, nor can they vote.
It's a Kirk thing.

"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #632 on: March 23, 2021, 07:10:16 PM »
     

Oh, aye.....right.
Michty me, jings, crivvens, help ma boab.......
Just as well the Lord High Commissioner has no authority in the Kirk, then.
Even where he sits - a box outside the floor of the Assembly looking down on proceedings - is there to show that he/she has no part in Assembly, nor can they vote.
It's a Kirk thing.
Nah, this is a Kirk thing

https://www.cnet.com/news/william-shatner-turns-90-ai-version-of-him-will-live-on-indefinitely/

Anchorman

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #633 on: March 23, 2021, 08:38:20 PM »
Nah, this is a Kirk thing

https://www.cnet.com/news/william-shatner-turns-90-ai-version-of-him-will-live-on-indefinitely/
   


Kirk hasn't been born yet.
As a future son of Linlithgow will say...."Ye cannae change the laws of physics".
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #634 on: February 06, 2022, 02:39:54 PM »
Alex Massie on the nonsense from Blackford about pensions


https://archive.vn/XtaP3

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #635 on: March 22, 2022, 03:02:58 PM »
I don't want a referendum next year but this is fucking disgraceful from the Herald

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #636 on: July 26, 2022, 11:42:37 AM »
Currently I would vote No in an IndyRef but the biggest Yes argument is the anti democratic refusal to hold one by the Tory Govt in WM.


https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1551661591107624961?t=aNWbZYx-ZZpjd6jC3UazKQ&s=19

Anchorman

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #637 on: July 26, 2022, 01:53:53 PM »
Currently I would vote No in an IndyRef but the biggest Yes argument is the anti democratic refusal to hold one by the Tory Govt in WM.


https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1551661591107624961?t=aNWbZYx-ZZpjd6jC3UazKQ&s=19
   


I'd vote Yes - no surprise there - because I'm thinking about the long term. But, yes, the Tory refusal is a red rag to a bull, and is only going to stoke further division.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #638 on: July 26, 2022, 02:58:02 PM »
   


I'd vote Yes - no surprise there - because I'm thinking about the long term. But, yes, the Tory refusal is a red rag to a bull, and is only going to stoke further division.
Amazingly I might be voting No because I'm thinking about the long term too

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #639 on: September 05, 2022, 06:21:13 PM »
And one take on the 'Shitemare'



https://youtu.be/6olnQ4cG2dU

Aruntraveller

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Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Anchorman

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"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #642 on: November 23, 2022, 12:30:23 PM »
   
Not unexpected.
It simply fuels the fire.
I think we need to wait and see about that. I can't see there being a huge upsurge in support, and it may mean, combined with the pressing demands of the cost of living crisis, that for many the demands to 'get on with the day job' becomes the prime demand.

Nearly Sane

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #644 on: December 07, 2022, 01:58:39 PM »
And a rise in support.


https://news.stv.tv/scotland/support-for-scottish-independence-rises-to-56-after-supreme-court-ruling-stv-poll
When you delve into the details the results are rather more nuanced.

So 56% would vote Yes to independence if there was a referendum tomorrow.

BUT - only 35% want a referendum in the next year or so. So the voting intention polling is a forced choice on a scenario most people don't want to happen - a referendum soon.

Make of that what you will. But it is an example of the danger of writing headlines around a forced choice scenario that people don't want or don't think important. This is similar (but less extreme) to the Brexit referendum, where in the run up to 2015 people were regularly asked to give their view on how they'd vote in a hypothetical EU referendum, but actually most people weren't in favour of a referendum and fewer still thought the EU to be a major issue facing the country.

On the latter, independence is 4th on the list of important issues facing Scotland after Health/NHS, Inflation/Cost of Living and Education.

SteveH

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #645 on: December 07, 2022, 02:11:13 PM »
Anything anyone doesn't like in UK politics at the moment is claimed t be what Putin wants. It's getting a bit tiresome.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

ProfessorDavey

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #646 on: December 07, 2022, 02:15:54 PM »
Anything anyone doesn't like in UK politics at the moment is claimed t be what Putin wants. It's getting a bit tiresome.
I don't disagree - the most ridiculous example being the claim that UK strikes were somehow all part of Putin's master plan.

However I only skim read the article - is this claim made there as well - if so I missed it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #647 on: December 07, 2022, 02:16:55 PM »
When you delve into the details the results are rather more nuanced.

So 56% would vote Yes to independence if there was a referendum tomorrow.

BUT - only 35% want a referendum in the next year or so. So the voting intention polling is a forced choice on a scenario most people don't want to happen - a referendum soon.

Make of that what you will. But it is an example of the danger of writing headlines around a forced choice scenario that people don't want or don't think important. This is similar (but less extreme) to the Brexit referendum, where in the run up to 2015 people were regularly asked to give their view on how they'd vote in a hypothetical EU referendum, but actually most people weren't in favour of a referendum and fewer still thought the EU to be a major issue facing the country.

On the latter, independence is 4th on the list of important issues facing Scotland after Health/NHS, Inflation/Cost of Living and Education.
Independence here is a binary scenario. Support has gone up. The headline and my post are correct. Putting it 4th does not mean people don't see it as imporatant. Maybe take your own advice and don't write simplistic statements - particularly when those are not headlines but in a longer post.

My take is still that a referendum won't happen for a variety of reasons.  And I would vote no.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 02:20:25 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #648 on: December 07, 2022, 02:19:30 PM »
Anything anyone doesn't like in UK politics at the moment is claimed t be what Putin wants. It's getting a bit tiresome.
Don't see this in the article or Prof D's post???

ProfessorDavey

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Re: 2nd Indy Referendum?
« Reply #649 on: December 07, 2022, 02:21:39 PM »
Independence here is a binary scenario. Support has gone up. The headline and my post are correct. Putting it 4th does not mean people don't see it as imporatant. Maybe take your own advice and don't write simplistic statementS - particularly when those are not headlines bit in a longer post.

My take is still that a referendum won't happen for a variety of reasons.  And I would vote no.
I'm not making simplistic statements.

The point is that the indyref2 polling is based on what people would vote were there a referendum tomorrow. That is a hypothetical scenario and one that most people don't want to happen, as only about a third of voters want a referendum anytime before the end of 2023, while a markedly greater proportion want the whole thing kicked into the long grass - favouring a referendum later than 2026 or never.

The point being that it isn't very valuable asking people what they would do in a forced choice in a hypothetical scenario that they don't want. Now it might be reasonable if there was a clear prospect of a referendum some time soon, but there isn't.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 03:10:42 PM by ProfessorDavey »