The Eucharist and Communion

[SusanDoris]

In a post the other day, Rhiannon mentioned that she thought it would not be a good thing to ridicule  the eucharist. This reminded me of a topic elsewhere which was on the subject of at what age should children take communion. Well, apart from quietly exploding at the whole idea of children being initiated into a symbolic form of cannibalism, I did not join that discussion as I would not have been able to refrain from pointing out that such an idea is not one that has been thought through, let alone critically thought through. 

This ritual no doubt has some deep meaning for  some people, although how the idea that one has to simulate eating the flesh and blood of a 2,000-year-dead person beggars belief --- and when I was young I was a communicant in the CofE – well, the mind boggles! I give myself the credit for questioning the ritual at the time, but did not know enough to counter the things I was told about how serious it was.

If one thinks things through, it is hard to imagine how adults can suspend their disbelief sufficiently,  so how in any way can it be correct to tell children and young people that it is the body and blood of Christ They are ingesting? Does this ritual inculcate a sense of servility and inferiority that will reduce self-esteem?

I would be interested in your views here.

[Anchorman]

Hang on - 'Eucharist' IS communion - we just use an angliscised version of the word. The only issue is the substance of the sacrament, transubstantiation or symbolic. In my own tradition, children are welcome to partake with the permission of their parents, if they have some understanding of the act and the elements. As for who can take it? Well, usually we ask that those who partake are baptised; but one phrase sometimes used is "All are welcome. This is not the table of any one church. It is the table of our Lord Jesus Christ."

[wigginhall]

I'm not sure what's wrong with a 'symbolic form of cannibalism', to quote Susan's phrase.  Popular culture is full of stories about serial killers and rape and God knows what, and fairy stories are notoriously gruesome.    Grimm's tales contain mutilation, incest, cannibalism, and infanticide.   There are lots of interesting explanations as to why we seem to like such primitive images, but anyway, we do.

I suppose that the literal sense of the eucharist, that one is literally eating flesh and blood, is hard to swallow (!).   As to what these things mean, I suppose it's to do with incorporation, merging, taking in the divine, and so on.   

[SusanDoris]

Anchorman

Thank you for your reply. May I ask what taking communion does for you? Does it change or enhance your beliefs?

wigginhall

thank you for your reply. If adults can rationalise the ritual for themselves, that is their right of course, but how much do you think those adults should explain to children?  Or should the children just take the wafer or bread and wine for fun?

[wigginhall]

Anchorman

Thank you for your reply. May I ask what taking communion does for you? Does it change or enhance your beliefs?

wigginhall

thank you for your reply. If adults can rationalise the ritual for themselves, that is their right of course, but how much do you think those adults should explain to children?  Or should the children just take the wafer or bread and wine for fun?

I'm not sure about 'rationalize'.  If I enjoy a horror film full of blood and gore, I don't need a rational explanation, do I?   And kids are notorious for liking violent stories, not for fun really.  I think the meanings are so unconscious that we don't know what they are.  Why do I like Nightmare on Elm St?  Well, you could argue that I am pleased about seeing my own destructive energy being neutralized, but that's a guess.   The point is you don't need an explanation.

[SusanDoris]

I'm not sure about 'rationalize'.  If I enjoy a horror film full of blood and gore, I don't need a rational explanation, do I?   And kids are notorious for liking violent stories, not for fun really.  I think the meanings are so unconscious that we don't know what they are.  Why do I like Nightmare on Elm St?  Well, you could argue that I am pleased about seeing my own destructive energy being neutralized, but that's a guess.   The point is you don't need an explanation.

Horror films etc are known to be 100% fiction, and do not involve millions of people in a belief involving a God which needs worship, and which is believed to affect the lives of humans!

[wigginhall]

Horror films etc are known to be 100% fiction, and do not involve millions of people in a belief involving a God which needs worship, and which is believed to affect the lives of humans!

You seem to be moving the goalposts now.   I thought you were objecting to stories about cannibalism?  Now you seem to objecting to stories about God.  Well, OK, there are stories about cannibalism which seem to be about God, I am just saying that cannibalism is OK as a theme in stories.   If you want to start arguing about God, then the thread has just changed.

[Walter]

Horror films etc are known to be 100% fiction, and do not involve millions of people in a belief involving a God which needs worship, and which is believed to affect the lives of humans!

SusanDoris

I have given this topic some considerable thought and as a result I have concluded this ;
nucking futters ,the lot of em

[Nearly Sane]

As someone who had their First Communion at the grand old age of 7, you don't really feel like it's cannibalism, symbolic or otherwise. You know it's a weird wee wafer thing that you are somehow supposed to treat with respect when eating it which leads to it getting stuck to the roof of your mouth and then scraped off with your tongue.

RC stuff is so weird that even at 7, you are sort of inured to this stuff. It's all magical hyper reality. After all we have crucifixes everywhere and every church will have a version of the Stations of the Cross with whippings, and crowns of thorns, and nailings. And even as young as four you will happily be singing along to the cheery little ditty, By the blood that flowed from thee - link to lyrics below. As a child that loved Dr Who and Greek mythology, it was all jolly stuff. At least that's what I told the psychiatrist who tried to test me after the fifth murder. I ate their liver with some chips (salt and vinegar)and half bottle of Buckie.





http://www.chantcd.com/lyrics/blood_flowed_from_thee.htm

[Anchorman]

Anchorman Thank you for your reply. May I ask what taking communion does for you? Does it change or enhance your beliefs? wigginhall thank you for your reply. If adults can rationalise the ritual for themselves, that is their right of course, but how much do you think those adults should explain to children?  Or should the children just take the wafer or bread and wine for fun?

- No-one, in my experience, takes the elements 'for fun', Susan. In the Kirk, there aren't that many occasions when we partake - depending on the congregation, three or four times a year, usually. That makes it into a very solemn, yet joyful, experience. And I can assure you that children would need to know at least something about the sacrament, and usually the minister of the congregation would set the standard as to what that 'something' was, before they partook. It is never anything we approach lightly -even though we don't accept transubstantiation as a doctrine. The symbolism of the elements of bread and wine, body broken, blood shed, are too important for that!

[wigginhall]

As someone who had their First Communion at the grand old age of 7, you don't really feel like it's cannibalism, symbolic or otherwise. You know it's a weird wee wafer thing that you are somehow supposed to treat with respect when eating it which leads to it getting stuck to the roof of your mouth and then scraped off with your tongue.

RC stuff is so weird that even at 7, you are sort of inured to this stuff. It's all magical hyper reality. After all we have crucifixes everywhere and every church will have a version of the Stations of the Cross with whippings, and crowns of thorns, and nailings. And even as young as four you will happily be singing along to the cheery little ditty, By the blood that flowed from thee - link to lyrics below. As a child that lived Dr Who and Greek mythology, it was all jolly stuff. At least that's what I told the psychiatrist who tried to test me after the fifth murder. I ate their liver with some chips and half bottle of Buckie.





http://www.chantcd.com/lyrics/blood_flowed_from_thee.htm

I was trying to think about it anthropologically, not very well, since I'm not an anthropologist.  But I am guessing that many cultures around the world have strange, or weird, or gruesome rituals and symbols.   I suppose there is a view that we should have grown out of that, because we are civilized and rational, but I don't really believe that.   Jung wrote some interesting stuff about Germany, where he said that modern man was extremely primitive, but it lurked beneath the surface.   Maybe.

[Nearly Sane]

I was trying to think about it anthropologically, not very well, since I'm not an anthropologist.  But I am guessing that many cultures around the world have strange, or weird, or gruesome rituals and symbols.   I suppose there is a view that we should have grown out of that, because we are civilized and rational, but I don't really believe that.   Jung wrote some interesting stuff about Germany, where he said that modern man was extremely primitive, but it lurked beneath the surface.   Maybe.

There's also the whole weird way we do Halloween in Scotland particularly the West Coast. As Anchorman and I have discussed previously,it was a very big thing way before the American version which is merely a derivation of the Scottish stuff reimported. Monsters, death and the shredding of the veil to the spirit world are great when you are a child. I've posted previously links to the idea of galoshans which is incredibly localised but guising is the wider term.

http://galoshans.com

[SusanDoris]

You seem to be moving the goalposts now.   I thought you were objecting to stories about cannibalism?  Now you seem to objecting to stories about God.  Well, OK, there are stories about cannibalism which seem to be about God, I am just saying that cannibalism is OK as a theme in stories.   If you want to start arguing about God, then the thread has just changed.

I did not post any goal posts or specific limits to the topic. I posted an OP which I hope is then open to discussion on whatever point anyone wishes to make.

[Nearly Sane]

And, of course, when you are used to recitations of Tam o'Shanter with such lovely trenchant lines as:
 'Three lawyers' tongues, turn'd inside out,
Wi' lies seam'd like a beggar's clout;
Three priests' hearts, rotten black as muck,
Lay stinking, vile in every neuk.'

Then a bit of the old symbolic cannibalism is perfectly fine

[wigginhall]

My impression of kids and young people, which is admittedly limited, is that they are very weird and wonderful, and they love gore and bizarre stuff.   I suppose then the argument is that they should not be told stories about God as factually based?  Oh well, I don't know.   

[ekim]

The symbolism of the elements of bread and wine, body broken, blood shed, are too important for that!

I wonder if that was really what bread and wine symbolised.  If Jesus was speaking in Hebrew/Armaic he might have used the words 'Netsach' which had a variety of meanings - grape juice, blood, strength, power, firmness, confidence, completeness, truth and 'Lachum' - food, flesh, body, nourishment, sustenance.  Perhaps it symbolises taking in spiritual sustenance and life empowerment and was a ritualistic memory aid.

[SusanDoris]

As someone who had their First Communion at the grand old age of 7, you don't really feel like it's cannibalism, symbolic or otherwise. You know it's a weird wee wafer thing that you are somehow supposed to treat with respect when eating it which leads to it getting stuck to the roof of your mouth and then scraped off with your tongue.

RC stuff is so weird that even at 7, you are sort of inured to this stuff. It's all magical hyper reality. After all we have crucifixes everywhere and every church will have a version of the Stations of the Cross with whippings, and crowns of thorns, and nailings. And even as young as four you will happily be singing along to the cheery little ditty, By the blood that flowed from thee - link to lyrics below. As a child that loved Dr Who and Greek mythology, it was all jolly stuff. At least that's what I told the psychiatrist who tried to test me after the fifth murder. I ate their liver with some chips (salt and vinegar)and half bottle of Buckie.





http://www.chantcd.com/lyrics/blood_flowed_from_thee.htm

Thank you, NS. Super post!! In my opinion, once one has seen right through and then stepped away from such rituals, there's ddefinitely no going back.

[Nearly Sane]

Thank you, NS. Super post!! In my opinion, once one has seen right through and then stepped away from such rituals, there's ddefinitely no going back.

I forgot to mention the Sacred Heart pictures of Jesus when he is depicted with his heart on his toga , generally with rays coming out of it, as if it's gone nuclear.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Heart

[SusanDoris]

- No-one, in my experience, takes the elements 'for fun', Susan. In the Kirk, there aren't that many occasions when we partake - depending on the congregation, three or four times a year, usually. That makes it into a very solemn, yet joyful, experience. And I can assure you that children would need to know at least something about the sacrament, and usually the minister of the congregation would set the standard as to what that 'something' was, before they partook. It is never anything we approach lightly -even though we don't accept transubstantiation as a doctrine. The symbolism of the elements of bread and wine, body broken, blood shed, are too important for that!

Thank you. That is interesting that it is not a weekly thing as it used to be, and I think still is, in the CofE.
another question if I may - do you think your faith would change if your church decided to drop the occasional taking of communion?

[Anchorman]

I wonder if that was really what bread and wine symbolised.  If Jesus was speaking in Hebrew/Armaic he might have used the words 'Netsach' which had a variety of meanings - grape juice, blood, strength, power, firmness, confidence, completeness, truth and 'Lachum' - food, flesh, body, nourishment, sustenance.  Perhaps it symbolises taking in spiritual sustenance and life empowerment and was a ritualistic memory aid.

From my memory, the Fospels, written in Koine Greek, rather than Hebrew, are a bit less complicated than either Hebrew or Aramaic.

[Anchorman]

Thank you. That is interesting that it is not a weekly thing as it used to be, and I think still is, in the CofE.
another question if I may - do you think your faith would change if your church decided to drop the occasional taking of communion?

-
Probably not, Susan, since the act, for us, is symbolic.
In partaking, we are reminded - if a reminder were really necessary, of the death and reseurrection.
We are commanded to "do this in memory of Me" as Jesus put it - so we obey as a rememberence of Calvary and the Empty tomb.
I realise that you accept neither of these, but they remain the core of ourr faith.

[Robbie]

It is a very moving experience.Something we do together, remembering Christ's sacrifice. We feel we are at one with Jesus at the time.  Nothing gory about it for goodness sakes!

[Anchorman]

It is a very moving experience.Something we do together, remembering Christ's sacrifice. We feel we are at one with Jesus at the time.  Nothing gory about it for goodness sakes!

-
Exactly.
I've always been moved when I partake of the elements - particularly when I do so with other believers who are not of my denomination.
Not only a memorial of sacrificial love, it is a commemoration of Christian unity.

[Robbie]

Precisely but not something easily understood by non-believers so I don't get offended, just think:'No-oneis telling you to do it',

[ad_orientem]

In the Orthodox Church all who have been baptised and chrismated (or confirmed, that is they have received the Holy Spirit via the annointing of sacred oil) into the Orthodox Church, including babies. We believe that the bread and wine have been transformed into the body and blood of our Lord and we receive holy communion as often as ones conscience allows. To the Orthodox it's a no brainer. Why would we or our children not want to receive such a grace?