The Eucharist and Communion

[SusanDoris]

It is a very moving experience.Something we do together, remembering Christ's sacrifice. We feel we are at one with Jesus at the time.  Nothing gory about it for goodness sakes!

The actual ritual is not in any way gory of course, and over the years hygiene improved - I never did like the idea of putting my lips to the same part of the cup that everyone else was using! The Vicar started dabbing a bit at the cup with a cloth and turning the cup slightly for the next person, but that was all a long time ago as far as I'm concerned.

The emotional feeling involved is induced by the person's individual ideas about the process and inculcated   beliefs as well as by being in the company of others with similar beliefs, so it is the mind that is at work, not the wafer and sip of wine.   

Have you ever tried to step back and consider the service and the ritual from an impersonal, objective point of view, I wonder?

[ad_orientem]

The ritual itself is important. The whole Eucharist is a prayer of thanksgiving. What one prays is what one believes that is, lex orandi lex credendi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_orandi,_lex_credendi

[Robbie]

The actual ritual is not in any way gory of course, and over the years hygiene improved - I never did like the idea of putting my lips to the same part of the cup that everyone else was using! The Vicar started dabbing a bit at the cup with a cloth and turning the cup slightly for the next person, but that was all a long time ago as far as I'm concerned.

The emotional feeling involved is induced by the person's individual ideas about the process and inculcated   beliefs as well as by being in the company of others with similar beliefs, so it is the mind that is at work, not the wafer and sip of wine.   

Have you ever tried to step back and consider the service and the ritual from an impersonal, objective point of view, I wonder?

]
alcohol kills germs. The wine used is low in alcohol but there is still some. In some places the chalice is wiped each time, in other churches small vials are used for each communicant. Never heard of anyone being infected (herpes etc.), from communion chalice.

[floo]

In the Orthodox Church all who have been baptised and chrismated (or confirmed, that is they have received the Holy Spirit via the annointing of sacred oil) into the Orthodox Church, including babies. We believe that the bread and wine have been transformed into the body and blood of our Lord and we receive holy communion as often as ones conscience allows. To the Orthodox it's a no brainer. Why would we or our children not want to receive such a grace?

But that is a crazy lie which is easily confirmed!

[ad_orientem]

But that is a crazy lie which is easily confirmed!

Only in your opinion.

[Stranger]

The ritual itself is important. The whole Eucharist is a prayer of thanksgiving. What one prays is what one believes that is, lex orandi lex credendi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_orandi,_lex_credendi

Humm... So, if, as the article says, "it is prayer which leads to belief", you could actually make yourself believe anything, if you used the right prayers...?

I guess it avoids all that tiresome thinking about stuff, eh?

[ad_orientem]

Humm... So, if, as the article says, "it is prayer which leads to belief", you could actually make yourself believe anything, if you used the right prayers...?

I guess it avoids all that tiresome thinking about stuff, eh?

I doesn't quite go like that. It goes both ways. Faith comes first but prayer confirms it. Right praise (orthodoxy) also leads to right belief. That is why in the East we do not change our liturgies and which is why so many western Christians looked on with horror when Rome changed its whole liturgies in the sixties after Vatican II.

[Stranger]

I doesn't quite go like that. It goes both ways. Faith comes first but prayer confirms it. Right praise (orthodoxy) also leads to right belief.

Sounds like some sort of weird self-hypnosis.

"Right" belief in what sense? The dogmas of your particular corner of Christianity? The idea that such a process could lead to objective "true for everyone" knowledge would be a rather silly claim...

[ad_orientem]

Sounds like some sort of weird self-hypnosis.

"Right" belief in what sense? The dogmas of your particular corner of Christianity? The idea that such a process could lead to objective "true for everyone" knowledge would be a rather silly claim...

Right belief, as in the Apostolic faith. Our actions represents our belief. This goes for the prayer of the Church but not only that, it confirms/strengthens it. Fiddle with it, change it, and eventually you do not have the same faith. That is why the first thing Luther did, for instance, is stop using the ancient and venerable Roman Canon.

[Stranger]

Right belief, as in the Apostolic faith. Our actions represents our belief. This goes for the prayer of the Church but not only that, it confirms/strengthens it. Fiddle with it, change it, and eventually you do not have the same faith. That is why the first thing Luther did, for instance, is stop using the ancient and venerable Roman Canon.

So the dogmas of your particular corner of Christianity, then (what you think, the apostles believed). Nothing objectively true for everyone.

[Stranger]

Only in your opinion.

No, it is actually possible to tell the difference between bread and wine and flesh and blood: it would taste different, for a start.

[Anchorman]

] alcohol kills germs. The wine used is low in alcohol but there is still some. In some places the chalice is wiped each time, in other churches small vials are used for each communicant. Never heard of anyone being infected (herpes etc.), from communion chalice.

- From a history geek POV, alchohol was a far more useful tool in the arsenal of ancient medicines than we give it credit. I agree - as a substitute for water, it was a great killer of germs - water being pretty impure on the whole. As for vessels? I've actually taken part in an impromptu communion on a beach - and the elements were distributed in a paper cup and plate - and the time was simply beautiful, as the sun glimmered off the waters on the Sound of Mull. In my own congregation, we've accumulated silverware over the centuries - pretty good stuff bearing the arms of the Boswell family, who were once benefactors to the Kirk. We've been trying to sell them, but various non-church bodies are throwing a spanner in the works. Our main concession to history is that we sometimes use a battered pewter cup - not really very appealing to look at - but used by the covenanting minister, Alexander Peden, in the 1670's, when the government tried to impose episcopacy onto the Kirk and worshippers took to the hills and glens, in illegal services of communion ('conventicles') sometimes losing their lives in the process at the hands of government dragoons.

[Nearly Sane]

No, it is actually possible to tell the difference between bread and wine and flesh and blood: it would taste different, for a start.

ah but that's just an accident


 "The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ."

[Walter]

Only in your opinion.

can you see me shaking my head in complete astonishment?

[SusanDoris]

ah but that's just an accident


 "The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ."

fortunately, I very much hope so anyway, more people do actually have a real understanding of the difference!

[floo]

Only in your opinion.

You have to be really gullible to believe it is anymore than symbolism.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I doesn't quite go like that. It goes both ways. Faith comes first but prayer confirms it. Right praise (orthodoxy) also leads to right belief. That is why in the East we do not change our liturgies and which is why so many western Christians looked on with horror when Rome changed its whole liturgies in the sixties after Vatican II.

Can I just add to Paul's posts that it was not our church who burned people alive over this issue?

[ippy]

You have to be really gullible to believe it is anymore than symbolism.

I'll second that Floo, it's the 21st century and we've still got people taken in hook line and sinker with this nonsense? Sad.

ippy

[SusanDoris]

I think there are quite a few who are not taken in completely, give due credit to scientists, the TofEand so on, go to family functionssuch as weddings, christenings and funerals, and, if they really allowed themselves to follow their logic through, know that the God idea is a non-starter, but   choose not to bother to think about that. That applies to quite a few who know me!!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The actual ritual is not in any way gory of course, and over the years hygiene improved - I never did like the idea of putting my lips to the same part of the cup that everyone else was using!

A similar thing puts me off Atheism namely the proximity of the noses of so many to a certain scientist's posterior. That's not to be taken literally but as a metaphor of course.

[Nearly Sane]

A similar thing puts me off Atheism namely the proximity of the noses of so many to a certain scientist's posterior. That's not to be taken literally but as a metaphor of course.

that would be an ad anusum

[Walt Zingmatilder]

that would be an ad anusum

It's A. Hole-y mystery.

[ippy]

Sam Harris does a good one on you tube, he compares the Eucharist with eating a few cream crackers and expecting to see Elvis.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sam Harris does a good one on you tube, he compares the Eucharist with eating a few cream crackers and expecting to see Elvis.

ippy

Laugh? I couldn't start.

[Nearly Sane]

Laugh? I couldn't start.

Maybe Sam should be on the stage?