Author Topic: The Eucharist and Communion  (Read 10946 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2017, 08:17:46 PM »
N S, go to YouTube and enter, Sam Harris- "The Elvis Analogy".

Regards ippy
I watched one and there seemed to be no cream crackers in it, and I like cream crackers. 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 08:21:47 PM by Nearly Sane »

ippy

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2017, 08:30:43 PM »
I watched one and there seemed to be no cream crackers in it, and I like cream crackers.

It's a good analogy, nail square on the head as far as I'm concerned, it shut down that Walpe bloke rather successfully.

ippy

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2017, 08:34:58 PM »
It's a good analogy, nail square on the head as far as I'm concerned, it shut down that Walpe bloke rather successfully.

ippy

I'm not saying it isn't but would say to others that if you think it was a direct analogy about communion, it isn't and it might be worth having a look and seeing what you think. Link below. I think it's unfortunate to not see the reply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn_i3RxGGTk
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 08:40:55 PM by Nearly Sane »

ippy

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2017, 08:49:27 AM »
I'm not saying it isn't but would say to others that if you think it was a direct analogy about communion, it isn't and it might be worth having a look and seeing what you think. Link below. I think it's unfortunate to not see the reply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn_i3RxGGTk

You N S, it seems to me unless an idea whatever the idea happens to be, unless described when trying to convey this whatever the idea may be; if it's not conveyed using your innermost thoughts about how to convey each idea, there has to be something about the conveyance of whatever idea it is by another, not your goodself, that isn't quite correct, in your estimation, you give me the impression that you would take even the missing of a dot over an i would, it seems to me, be deeply significant for you.

I'm sure there's a load of material in the above for you to dissect, please feel free to do so.   

ippy

ekim

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2017, 10:06:19 AM »
Not sure it is Robinson's position that 'religious beliefs' need to be respected, as she stated it should be extended to people's opinions on the best Doctor Who. I don't really know what the position is, which is what I have been seeking to clarify.
I'm not sure that she is saying that.  She used the word 'empathy' which is a feeling towards a person not towards a belief or opinion.  You can still respect the person who derives benefit from a religious ritual like the Eucharist without respecting the source of that benefit.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2017, 10:24:40 AM »
I'm not sure that she is saying that.  She used the word 'empathy' which is a feeling towards a person not towards a belief or opinion.  You can still respect the person who derives benefit from a religious ritual like the Eucharist without respecting the source of that benefit.
But the idea of respect the person then has to extend to the idea if the discussion or disparagement of the idea is what is to be stopped by the 'empathy'. The whole of this discussion is about disoragement of ideas, if it is to be stopped on the basis that it might offend the people who hold that idea seriously, then the principle extends from the best Doctor Who to FGM.

It's rather similar to the rule we have on the board where we (try to) stop personal insult but allow free debate of ideas. If you extend the protection from the person to the idea because it offends the person, then it ends up protecting the idea and giving it respect that I think is unwarranted.

Sassy

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2017, 10:55:45 AM »
In a post the other day, Rhiannon mentioned that she thought it would not be a good thing to ridicule  the eucharist. This reminded me of a topic elsewhere which was on the subject of at what age should children take communion. Well, apart from quietly exploding at the whole idea of children being initiated into a symbolic form of cannibalism, I did not join that discussion as I would not have been able to refrain from pointing out that such an idea is not one that has been thought through, let alone critically thought through. 

Rather belies your belief that you do not believe in a god.
Why explode at all if it has no reality to it?
Cannibalism.... Symbolic or otherwise could not be further from the truth.
I believe if you actually did not believe in God or the truth about the sacrifice of Christ then there would be no emotions at all.
Were you raised with faith? Did you ever take communion?  But which would be worse. Telling a child about Jesus and taking communion or sharing your disbelief and them going to where unbelievers not saved could go after death.

I think the latter does far more harm if true. But if you do not believe why pretend one can harm and the other cannot?

Quote
This ritual no doubt has some deep meaning for  some people, although how the idea that one has to simulate eating the flesh and blood of a 2,000-year-dead person beggars belief --- and when I was young I was a communicant in the CofE – well, the mind boggles! I give myself the credit for questioning the ritual at the time, but did not know enough to counter the things I was told about how serious it was.

Do you eat your steak well done or medium rare etc. Has it done you any harm?
If you believe all flesh is the same that we are all animals then doesn't that mean you are committing Cannabilism by eating animal flesh at all?
You see how unreal and unconnected your beliefs really are. How double standards appear in your thinking.
If humans are the same as animals in that they are animals too. ( Which I do not believe) Then you like all meat eater have committed cannabilism .

Quote
If one thinks things through, it is hard to imagine how adults can suspend their disbelief sufficiently,  so how in any way can it be correct to tell children and young people that it is the body and blood of Christ They are ingesting? Does this ritual inculcate a sense of servility and inferiority that will reduce self-esteem?

I would be interested in your views here.

Does the above apply to you or any atheist when eating animal flesh?
Is it correct to feed meat to our children if we allow those thoughts that we are all animals?

You are not really interested in views. You were hoping to somehow make it about something human in origin like your own beliefs.
But when tested you do far worse if your beliefs are correct. You actually commit cannibalism by eating animal flesh when calling all humans animals.  Would be best you left things like communion alone as it is not about cannibalism it is about the sacrifice of human flesh for human flesh.
We do not eat the flesh or drink blood. It is a mystical thing about life coming from the sacrifice of Christ and deliverance.

Now I believe the matter is settled.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sebastian Toe

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2017, 11:23:38 AM »
www.dictionary.com/browse/cannibalism
1. the eating of human flesh by another human being. the eating of the flesh of an animal by another animal of its own kind. the ceremonial eating of human flesh or parts of the human body for magical or religious purposes, as to acquire the power or skill of a person recently killed.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cannibal
a person who eats the flesh of other human beings

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/cannibal
cannibal meaning, definition, what is cannibal:
 a person who eats human flesh, or an animal that eats the flesh of animals of its own type
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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Sassy

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #83 on: March 30, 2017, 12:53:55 PM »
www.dictionary.com/browse/cannibalism
1. the eating of human flesh by another human being. the eating of the flesh of an animal by another animal of its own kind. the ceremonial eating of human flesh or parts of the human body for magical or religious purposes, as to acquire the power or skill of a person recently killed.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cannibal
a person who eats the flesh of other human beings

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/cannibal
cannibal meaning, definition, what is cannibal:
 a person who eats human flesh, or an animal that eats the flesh of animals of its own type

NAH! you say we are all animals the dictionary does not think we are all animals.

noun
1.
any member of the kingdom Animalia, comprising multicellular organisms that have a well-defined shape and usually limited growth, can move voluntarily, actively acquire food and digest it internally, and have sensory and nervous systems that allow them to respond rapidly to stimuli: some classification schemes also include protozoa and certain other single-celled eukaryotes that have motility and animallike nutritional modes.
2.
any such living thing other than a human being.
3.
a mammal, as opposed to a fish, bird, etc.


human being
Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
2.
a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species:


I have said numerous times we are not animals but you all insist we are. But when it shows up that you are the cannibals in that instance then you want to change the rules and what you have said.

So now we have it... HUMAN BEINGS ARE NOT ANIMALS otherwise you are all Cannibals...
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

SusanDoris

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #84 on: March 30, 2017, 01:27:05 PM »
Sassy

Normally speaking, I do not read your posts, let alone respond to them. I did consider responding to yours to me above, but it is so lacking in any facts or sense that I am not going to do so. I will just point out that children should be given INFORMATION about as much of life as possible, but NOT told such things as taking communion are rational nor that this is symbolic of eating flesh and blood, particularly of a person dead for two thousand years.



As for your ridiculous point about eating steak, well, that is not human flesh, nor is it symbolic of some bizarre religious ritual.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 01:33:23 PM by SusanDoris »
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ekim

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #85 on: March 30, 2017, 05:53:34 PM »
But the idea of respect the person then has to extend to the idea if the discussion or disparagement of the idea is what is to be stopped by the 'empathy'. The whole of this discussion is about disoragement of ideas, if it is to be stopped on the basis that it might offend the people who hold that idea seriously, then the principle extends from the best Doctor Who to FGM.

It's rather similar to the rule we have on the board where we (try to) stop personal insult but allow free debate of ideas. If you extend the protection from the person to the idea because it offends the person, then it ends up protecting the idea and giving it respect that I think is unwarranted.
I don't think it follows that respect of a person stops discussion of their ideas.  Disparagement of a person or personal insult, on the other hand, is just ad hominem by another name and is usually the result of an intention to offend.  If that person takes offence, the discussion could just as well stop by that person leaving you with nobody to discuss with.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2017, 06:08:22 PM »
I don't think it follows that respect of a person stops discussion of their ideas.  Disparagement of a person or personal insult, on the other hand, is just ad hominem by another name and is usually the result of an intention to offend.  If that person takes offence, the discussion could just as well stop by that person leaving you with nobody to discuss with.
Except disparaging the idea is what was being argued against because people would be offended.  No one has argued for disparagement of the person but the ability to disparage the idea and if someone takes offence at that then they the one shutting down discussion of the idea.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 06:15:07 PM by Nearly Sane »

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2017, 07:16:20 PM »
It's a good analogy, nail square on the head as far as I'm concerned, it shut down that Walpe bloke rather successfully.

ippy

FYI

Our communion involves a few crumbs of bread, blessed by by the priest, which we swallow with a spoonful of good quality wine.

What you, or Susie, may think about our rituals, does not bother us.

Love and kisses to Iplova

HWB

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #88 on: March 30, 2017, 07:27:11 PM »
FYI

Our communion involves a few crumbs of bread, blessed by by the priest, which we swallow with a spoonful of good quality wine.

What you, or Susie, may think about our rituals, does not bother us.

Love and kisses to Iplova

HWB
. Having tried to get drunk on RC communion wine, they were skimping. Buckfast Lite

ippy

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2017, 08:32:09 PM »
FYI

Our communion involves a few crumbs of bread, blessed by by the priest, which we swallow with a spoonful of good quality wine.

What you, or Susie, may think about our rituals, does not bother us.

Love and kisses to Iplova

HWB

You've go to admit, even when using the kindest of terms, it is a bit of a strange idea HW?

ippy

Rhiannon

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2017, 11:26:45 PM »
I personally choose not to mock the Eucharist because I know what it means to some. It's my personal boundary. That doesn't mean that others shouldn't be free to mock should they so wish.

Sassy

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #91 on: March 31, 2017, 08:19:44 AM »
Sassy

Normally speaking, I do not read your posts, let alone respond to them. I did consider responding to yours to me above, but it is so lacking in any facts or sense that I am not going to do so. I will just point out that children should be given INFORMATION about as much of life as possible, but NOT told such things as taking communion are rational nor that this is symbolic of eating flesh and blood, particularly of a person dead for two thousand years.



As for your ridiculous point about eating steak, well, that is not human flesh, nor is it symbolic of some bizarre religious ritual.

That just isn't true.
You responded because you had never thought about the things I have mentioned above.
 But far worse eating animal flesh if you think you are an animal.
That was the crux's wasn't it. So the false claim it made no sense swept away.

The fact is the sacrifice was given his body and blood to save from sin.
But it is strictly forbidden the eating of animal blood in sacrifices.
I asked you questions you never answered which shows you perfectly understood and in answering them you would have
shown your false indignation to be just that.

May be everyone is false in their own way. Take a look at the world how it tells illiterate adults there is no shame and they
can learn. But then look how you and others falsely accuse others that there post is lacking facts and makes no sense.
My post did make sense but it is the cop out that atheist use when faced with something they clearly do not want to answer.


Quote
Do you eat your steak well done or medium rare etc. Has it done you any harm?

Not clear or lacking fact?  You tell me you don't understand what is written? You understood but you had never actually thought of communion for what it really is. Just as you never tested anything you believed about it.
Quote
If you believe all flesh is the same that we are all animals then doesn't that mean you are committing Cannibalism by eating animal flesh at all?

This again was not lacking facts... Nothing which could not be understood or did not make sense.

So next time do not use the cop outs because you see I used 'facts' of your own beliefs against you to show you cannot condemn the taking of communion which is bread and wine when you eat meat and believe yourself to be an animal.


We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sebastian Toe

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #92 on: March 31, 2017, 08:37:24 AM »

www.dictionary.com/browse/cannibalism
1. the eating of human flesh by another human being. the eating of the flesh of an animal by another animal of its own kind. the ceremonial eating of human flesh or parts of the human body for magical or religious purposes, as to acquire the power or skill of a person recently killed.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cannibal
a person who eats the flesh of other human beings

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/cannibal
cannibal meaning, definition, what is cannibal:
 a person who eats human flesh, or an animal that eats the flesh of animals of its own type

 :)
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Anchorman

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #93 on: March 31, 2017, 09:12:28 AM »
I personally choose not to mock the Eucharist because I know what it means to some. It's my personal boundary. That doesn't mean that others shouldn't be free to mock should they so wish.



-
Exactly, Rhi.
While I don't accept transubstantiation, nevertheless the sacrament is a profoundly moving part of my worship; bound as it is with the centrality of the Atonement.
Even though in our tradition the elements are, and remain, symbolic, they nevertheless represent for us a truth so profound and astounding that it transcends the mundane.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Dicky Underpants

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Re: The Eucharist and Communion
« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2017, 04:43:50 PM »
. Having tried to get drunk on RC communion wine, they were skimping. Buckfast Lite

Raspberry juice cordial in my childhood Methodist church.
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