Author Topic: God's choice: quick question for Christians  (Read 53828 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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God's choice: quick question for Christians
« on: March 20, 2017, 11:22:14 AM »
Just thought I'd ask: would the Christian God be more accepting of a kind atheist than a hateful Christian, or vice versa?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 12:57:51 PM by Nearly Sane »
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floo

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 12:05:05 PM »
Just thought I'd ask: would the Christian God be more accepting of a kind atheist than a hateful Christian, or vice versa?

If a god exists and it was a decent sort of entity it would much prefer a good, upright atheist to a hateful Christian.

Religion certainly doesn't make a person better, in many cases and can make them much worse. I have a relative by marriage who was an ok guy until he got 'born again'. Sadly he changed for the worse. :o
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 12:58:19 PM by Nearly Sane »

Sriram

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 12:28:00 PM »
Just thought I'd ask: would the Christian God be more accepting of a kind atheist than a hateful Christian, or vice versa?


In general, I think any God would prefer a good and selfless person over a cruel and selfish person. That is what human development and moving away from base tendencies is all about.

Christians have been told to focus on faith over everything else, perhaps because the people were simple and required a direct and uncomplicated rule. Perhaps options in terms of other gods at that time were even more iffy than the Christian God.

It is like saying that we should respect our parents. Which is fine under normal circumstances. If however our parents turn out to be cruel criminals...we should be able to disobey that law. But that requires a certain maturity of mind and an ability  to understand complex  morality.   

It is like the Hindu 'Dharma'....which is extremely complex and could change with circumstances.  Because of this, we have literally hundreds of stories which outline how we should behave under different circumstances. This could include telling lies, disobeying parents, killing people and so on...and still be morally  upright.

 

« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 12:58:45 PM by Nearly Sane »

Anchorman

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 12:29:05 PM »
John 3:16 answeres that.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 12:59:14 PM by Nearly Sane »
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 12:38:10 PM »
Anchs,

Quote
John 3:16 answeres that.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"?

So "He'd" pick the hateful person who believed over the kind one who didn't then?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 12:59:33 PM by Nearly Sane »
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SusanDoris

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 12:55:00 PM »
That's  a difficult question for non-believers!


However, I'm just creeping in very quietly to whisper, could you please correct the speling in the topic title? synhetic Dave reads what's there thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 12:59:58 PM by Nearly Sane »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 01:02:30 PM »
Moderator Just to note if anyone sees that I have edited their post on this thread, it is as a result of the typo in the original title, as highlighted by Susan Doris.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 01:14:39 PM »
Hi Susan,

Quote
That's  a difficult question for non-believers!


However, I'm just creeping in very quietly to whisper, could you please correct the speling in the topic title? synhetic Dave reads what's there thanks in advance.

My apologies. NS seems to have corrected it now (thanks NS).
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Nearly Sane

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2017, 01:19:43 PM »
Hi Susan,

My apologies. NS seems to have corrected it now (thanks NS).
if you correct an OP title, it only corrects the OP and any replies to it after the correction.

Anchorman

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 01:28:58 PM »
Anchs,

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"?

So "He'd" pick the hateful person who believed over the kind one who didn't then?
Anchs,

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"?

So "He'd" pick the hateful person who believed over the kind one who didn't then?

-
Where does John say that God 'picks' anyone in this verse, please?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 01:49:07 PM »
Anchs,

Quote
Where does John say that God 'picks' anyone in this verse, please?

Here: "that whosoever believeth in him should not...".

Seems fairly clear: "God" will allow those who believe not to "perish", whereas presumably "He" could have used a different measure - judging people by what they do rather than by what they believe for example. 
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ekim

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 01:57:22 PM »
Just thought I'd ask: would the Christian God be more accepting of a kind atheist than a hateful Christian, or vice versa?
I suspect neither if the requirements are to love God and love your neighbour as yourself.  The atheist would be unlikely to love God nor the Christian to love his neighbour, if he is so full of hate.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 02:01:23 PM »
ekim,

Quote
I suspect neither if the requirements are to love God and love your neighbour as yourself.  The atheist would be unlikely to love God nor the Christian to love his neighbour, if he is so full of hate.

But what if the Christian "believeth" whether or not he loves his neighbour? If John is to be believed, the believing bit seems to be the clincher.
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Anchorman

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 02:29:21 PM »
Anchs,

Here: "that whosoever believeth in him should not...".

Seems fairly clear: "God" will allow those who believe not to "perish", whereas presumably "He" could have used a different measure - judging people by what they do rather than by what they believe for example. 


-
Well, in a more modern version (and nearer to the original, if a bit less poetic),
that bit reads
"....so that everyone who believes in Him will not die, but have eternal life"
and goes onto the next, less quoted, but equally important verse
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn it, but that the world should be saved through Him"
My reading is that it is not God, but man who is supposed to do the 'picking' and receive the consequences of that choice.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

ekim

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2017, 02:32:43 PM »
ekim,

But what if the Christian "believeth" whether or not he loves his neighbour? If John is to be believed, the believing bit seems to be the clincher.
To me, that's one of the difficulties with being a Christian.  Do you believe and follow the words of Jesus, who wasn't a Christian, or believe and follow the words of a follower of, or commentator upon, Jesus?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2017, 02:43:29 PM »
Anchs,

Quote
Well, in a more modern version (and nearer to the original, if a bit less poetic),
that bit reads
"....so that everyone who believes in Him will not die, but have eternal life"
and goes onto the next, less quoted, but equally important verse
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn it, but that the world should be saved through Him"
My reading is that it is not God, but man who is supposed to do the 'picking' and receive the consequences of that choice.

Well, the extent to which I can "choose" to believe something without having sufficient reason to do so is debatable but - more to the point - surely it's still "God" who's choosing isn't it, ie choosing that criterion for everlasting life rather than a different one? Why would a just God not be indifferent to belief and instead judge someone by his actions?

That way at least kind people would have a better (or at least equal) chance than hateful ones who also just happened to believe something. 
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jjohnjil

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2017, 02:46:33 PM »
Doesn’t this show clearly that religion is purely man-made?
 
 If we take God as being the entity that created everything in the Universe, why would he pick out a tiny planet revolving around a star which was one of billions in a galaxy which itself was one of many billions? Then why choose just one - of the billions of different species he had created - to take to live with him in Heaven?

And then to pick only those humans who believed in an illogical, highly dubious, story?  Or, for that matter, those who are kind to their fellow man?

In both cases it shows that the whole thing was thought up by humans – and mainly by ancient tribes who were suppressed and needed something to hope for.

Anchorman

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2017, 02:46:56 PM »
Anchs, Here: "that whosoever believeth in him should not...". Seems fairly clear: "God" will allow those who believe not to "perish", whereas presumably "He" could have used a different measure - judging people by what they do rather than by what they believe for example.
- But the whole point of 'Grace' is that there is nothing whatsoever we CAN do to earn God's love, or eternal life. God already loves us - nothing can change that. As for the rest? That was earned - but not by us. That's the whole message of the Gospel and the core of what it is to be Christian. Any 'works' we do are as a response to His grace, not to earn it.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2017, 02:47:48 PM »
ekim,

Quote
To me, that's one of the difficulties with being a Christian.  Do you believe and follow the words of Jesus, who wasn't a Christian, or believe and follow the words of a follower of, or commentator upon, Jesus?

Dunno - but whether it was the words of Jesus or of a follower, it still seems a pretty idiosyncratic entry rule for the heavenly rewards to follow. More Kim Jong-un than a god of the omnis I'd have thought. 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2017, 02:53:52 PM »
Anchs,

Quote
But the whole point of 'Grace' is that there is nothing whatsoever we CAN do to earn God's love, or eternal life.

Isn't John was saying the opposite of that - if you "believeth" then you can earn it, or at least earn the entry ticket whereas as those who don't cannot? 

Quote
God already loves us - nothing can change that.

Even those who don't believe? Why then condemn them for their non-belief, especially if they've led kind and blameless lives?

Quote
As for the rest? That was earned - but not by us. That's the whole message of the Gospel and the core of what it is to be Christian. Any 'works' we do are as a response to His grace, not to earn it.

But why wouldn't this God precisely judge us on our works rather than on what we happen to believe about "Him" and His ways?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 02:55:56 PM by bluehillside »
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DaveM

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2017, 03:41:52 PM »
It is an invalid question.  A ‘hateful Christian’ is a contradiction in terms.  There is no such thing as a hateful Christian.  There might well be many individuals who claim to be Christians who are hateful people, but in God’s eyes they are not.  They are no more than ‘wolves in sheep’s’ clothing’   Matthew 7:15-20 says, ‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Or again continuing on to verses 21-23 in the same chapter. ‘Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’  And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2017, 04:00:45 PM »
Hi DaveM,

Quote
It is an invalid question.  A ‘hateful Christian’ is a contradiction in terms.  There is no such thing as a hateful Christian.  There might well be many individuals who claim to be Christians who are hateful people, but in God’s eyes they are not.  They are no more than ‘wolves in sheep’s’ clothing’   Matthew 7:15-20 says, ‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Couple of problems there:

First, if John is to be believed then “proper” Christians or not, the entry ticket seems to be believing rather than behaving. Even if you are a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” doesn’t seem to make much difference for that purpose.

Second, there are in any case plenty of beliefs that could be said to be hateful that are within the mainstream canon of Christian belief – the treatment of gays and discrimination against women as examples. Your opinion on whether the “fruit” is god or bad is in other words subjective.

Quote
Or again continuing on to verses 21-23 in the same chapter. ‘Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’  And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Stirring stuff no doubt, but it still seems to bar the non-believer entirely. Why would not an atheist who was genuinely mistaken and who’d spent his life doing good works be allowed a dispensation at least?
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2017, 04:04:18 PM »

-
Well, in a more modern version (and nearer to the original, if a bit less poetic),
that bit reads
"....so that everyone who believes in Him will not die, but have eternal life"
and goes onto the next, less quoted, but equally important verse
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn it, but that the world should be saved through Him"
My reading is that it is not God, but man who is supposed to do the 'picking' and receive the consequences of that choice.

And what about the next important verse:

[18] "He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Seems pretty unequivocal, and rather simplistic in its approach. You can't just 'choose' to believe (a topic well-thrashed out here and elsewhere). But according to this, if you don't, it may turn out rather unpleasantly for you.

The first epistle of John is similarly brutal, suggesting that those who don't acknowledge that Christ has come in the flesh are Antichrist and evil (though this text may be a blast against the Gnostics, who believed in Jesus, but as a purely spiritual entity (docetism))
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 04:14:48 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2017, 04:10:12 PM »
DU,

Quote
And what about the next important verse:

[18] "He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Seems pretty unequivocal, and rather simplistic in its approach. You can't just 'choose' to believe (a topic well-thrashed out here and elsewhere). But according to this, if you don't, it may turn out rather unpleasantly for you.

Well observed. It's a pretty rigged game isn't it: "I made you such that you cannot just choose to believe something/if you don't believe it you're condemned a priori regardless of how good your actions and behaviour". Is this a just god we're talking about here or Fat Tony and the boys? 
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: God's choice: quick question for Christians
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2017, 04:22:51 PM »
- But the whole point of 'Grace' is that there is nothing whatsoever we CAN do to earn God's love, or eternal life. God already loves us - nothing can change that. As for the rest? That was earned - but not by us. That's the whole message of the Gospel and the core of what it is to be Christian. Any 'works' we do are as a response to His grace, not to earn it.

And yet Matthew 25 says nothing about 'grace' - it's all about works (as is the 'straw' epistle of James). Sure, St Paul made the 'grace' idea central to his teaching, since he'd tried harder than most to keep the law, and failed. Christianity has over the centuries become a curious mishmash of these antithetical ideas. It produces some strange anomalies - Protestantism, which really bigged up the 'grace' idea, has also given birth to that humourless phenomenon "the Protestant work-ethic".
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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