God's choice: quick question for Christians

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sword,

I think you need to ask that question of those who believe in magic pixies.

Which presumably would be their "worldview". So, according to you, there are magic pixies then!

Seems like a statement about religious belief that assumes the conclusion of that it is claiming. I'd leave that to bluehillside and Gordon if I were you...

Doesn't Jesus have something to say about people who tell porkies?

[torridon]

I think you need to ask that question of those who believe in magic pixies.

There is a difference between magic pixies and magic gods ?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sword,

Your analogy shows you haven't understood how biblical salvation works or the role of good works

Try again. I'll give you a week. If you need more time, let me know...

I'll do better - I'll give you two weeks to work out where you've gone calamitously wrong. Happy to give you more time after that if you're still lost thought.

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

There is a difference between magic pixies and magic gods ?

Seems not - apparently they're just different "worldviews".

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

Sword,

I'll do better - I'll give you two weeks to work out where you've gone calamitously wrong. Happy to give you more time after that if you're still lost thought.

No need. You're doing the equivalent of claiming that 1+1 doesn't equal 10 whilst refusing to understand how base 2 works.

[SusanDoris]

Sword,

Which presumably would be their "worldview". So, according to you, there are magic pixies then!

Doesn't Jesus have something to say about people who tell porkies?

I bet he'd have something to say about overwheening pride in the belief of one's own cleverness and superior understanding too!!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sword,

No need. You're doing the equivalent of claiming that 1+1 doesn't equal 10 whilst refusing to understand how base 2 works.

Back with the same idiocy?

Seriously?

Seriously seriously?

(Wearily) first, a "world view" tells you nothing about epistemic truth. You can have any world view you like - magic gods or magic pixies alike - and it'll tell you nothing other than the subjective truth of either.

Second, your attempt to demonstrate different "worldviews" collapses immediately because it's the same world view - logic. All you've done is to dick around with the starting conditions.

If you wanted to make an analogy, it would have to be a comparison of 1+1=2 with 1+1=fish or some such.

Could you at least try to catch up before you make this mistake again? Ta.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

346

They are not mutually exclusive. See if you can figure out why!

Sword,

Scenario 1:

St Peter: "Well done for all those good works old son. Sadly though you didn't accept the offer, so on your bike it is I'm afraid."

Scenario 2:

St Peter: "Not much sign of good works there I'm afraid, but on the plus side at least you believed in the offer. Come on in!

QED

Which is not how biblical salvation works. Why not read the bible for yourself and see if you can crack it.

7 days ...

[Stranger]

No need. You're doing the equivalent of claiming that 1+1 doesn't equal 10 whilst refusing to understand how base 2 works.

How about you explain whatever you think the equivalent of "base 2" that everyone is missing - instead of mindlessly repeating it? If it's as simple as a number base, it shouldn't take long....

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sword,

Which is not how biblical salvation works. Why not read the bible for yourself and see if you can crack it.

7 days ...

Try reading the OP to see where you've gone wrong.

Two weeks...

[torridon]

Since I am at liberty to consider both natural and non-natural explanations, I would suggest that it is less biased than one that assumes only natural causes and explanations; certainly one that assumes the truth of their position by accusing another poster of doing the equivalent of claiming 2+2=5.

The very notion of 'non natural explanation' is an oxymoron. Explanation is naturalistic.  Any invocation of supernatural into a chain of reasoning renders the entire chain null and void.  If you don't understand this, take a look at the below :

http://the-formula.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/miracle.jpg

[Stranger]

Why not read the bible for yourself and see if you can crack it.

I assume you jest.

I've done that - it's an incoherent, self-contradictory mess. Even those who claim to agree that it's the 'word of god' can't agree about what it actually means...

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

The very notion of 'non natural explanation' is an oxymoron. Explanation is naturalistic.  Any invocation of supernatural into a chain of reasoning renders the entire chain null and void.  If you don't understand this, take a look at the below :

http://the-formula.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/miracle.jpg

One of my favourite cartoons - perfectly captures "Swordism" (and "AlanBurnsism", "Vladism" etc).

[torridon]

I assume you jest.

I've done that - it's an incoherent, self-contradictory mess. Even those who claim to agree that it's the 'word of god' can't agree about what it actually means...

Clearly true judging by posters on this thread who cannot even agree on things as fundamental as the Trinity or the doctrine of salvation.

[floo]

Your analogy shows you haven't understood how biblical salvation works or the role of good works

Try again. I'll give you a week. If you need more time, let me know...

The 'you must be 'saved' dogma is CRAZY.

[SusanDoris]

torridon

Could you tell me what is on the blackboard, please? with increased magnification I can see the words below, but not the rest.  Thank you - no rush.

[Nearly Sane]

torridon

Could you tell me what is on the blackboard, please? with increased magnification I can see the words below, but not the rest.  Thank you - no rush.

There are various equations on the left of the two male figures, then written and being pointed is 'Then a miracle occurs' to be followed more more equations on the right.

[Gordon]

And the charge of logical fallacy is dependent on your worldview.

Wrong.

[SusanDoris]

Thank you, NS.

(I thought I'd already posted that, but I can't see it.)

[Gordon]

Another one who assumes the truth of their position, then makes deductions from it.

The truth (or otherwise) of a statement doesn't change by calling it unreconstructed bollocks by the way.

I think you should be careful using terms you don't understand - like 'truth' and 'deductions'.

[torridon]

torridon

Could you tell me what is on the blackboard, please? with increased magnification I can see the words below, but not the rest.  Thank you - no rush.

Here is the same image at a larger size, I hope you'll be better able to see it :

http://www.trulyfallacious.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/then-a-miracle-occurs-logic.jpg

[SusanDoris]

torridon

Yes, that was better. thank  you. It looked like basic numbers on the left, and fancy greek notation etc on the right?!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

I think you should be careful using terms you don't understand - like 'truth' and 'deductions'.

And "analogy".

And "world view".

And "god".

It's weird innit - presumably Sword thinks he has some kind of reason or logic to distinguish his religious beliefs from just guessing, yet as soon as he invokes "reason" and "logic" (albeit incompetently) he invokes naturalist phenomena to validate his non-naturalistic conjectures.

It's all unmitigated nonsense, but for some reason he finds it comforting I guess.

[Sassy]

How is that consistent with a benign god ?

Pardoning you. You choose not to accept that is your right. But it is also your own fault just as your sin is.

  Surely a benign god would not discriminate, giving christians only a free pass into salvation no matter what their contributions, but all others have to be assessed.  It's a two track system,  the haves and the have-nots. 

He didn't discriminate he made it the same for everyone as you are no different when it comes to sin.
You refusing the free pass is not discrimination it is you choosing.

And notwithstanding all that, what a person believes is only valid at a point in time; nobody believes the same things all through life without change.

Jesus did. King David and King Solomon did. Abraham and Isaac did and even Jacob and Moses.
This is your time and what you believe decides what happens.

That's why it is called a spiritual journey. So someone might well be a christian at one stage, a muslim at another, and an atheist at another.  How does this salvation paradigm operate in such circumstances ?

It is a choice and usually circumstances can change things. But the heart is what decides doesn't it. Those whose heart is centred on God don't change. Look at Job.

[Sassy]

One basic Christian belief has for a long time been the Trinity, in which you do not believe.

God in three persons as opposed to God is three persons.
Hence Jews call it a triune not a trinity.
I believe in God, I believe In Jesus and I believe in the Holy Spirit. Like Christ, I believe there is only one God.
The Father is God, Jesus is the Son and then the Holy Spirit three persons.
I don't believe in a manmade idea that all three make one God but that God the Father is in all three.

I presume you're referring to St Paul's idea of "By faith, Abraham was counted righteous" - the only part of the Law that St Paul didn't dispense with. I suggest he only clutched at the reference to Abraham because the Roman authorities would only give any credence to a foreign religion if it had some kind of ancient pedigree, and he knew his new religion would never make headway without providing some.

Paul did not dispense with the LAW. He simply told people that obeying the law was not enough and that the only way to have your sins forgiven was through Christ.   It is understanding that Christ did not do away with the Law or teachings of the Prophets. We uphold them but they do not bring forgiveness or Gods righteousness as the way through Christ and forgiveness of sins removed.