Lost for words

[Nearly Sane]

Not necessarily, but it's certainly not my view that sex change operations are the answer. That starts with not referring a man who thinks he's a woman as "she". That also goes for women who think they're men.


No, I don't like bullying, but then referring to someone as a pervert doesn't immediately imply bullying. In the case of the person in the link I would say it's an apt description, as with all people of that sort.

I think tying pervert, to nonce and weirdo does imply bullying. I think if you are going to deal with any individual labelling them as a pervert will be bullying. I think that thinking you know what would help in this to the extent of  refusing to do as they want to do could also be seen as bullying.

You may also want to unpack that 'Not necessarily' to explain what you mean

As I covered earlier, I think you need to deal with this in three parts, if you object to gender reassignments, then make that case first since in a sense the rest of the case doesn't matter because even if the person asking for gender reassignment had never broken any laws, invented cures for all cancers, and won BaKe Off and Strictly in the same year, you would still be objecting. 

[ad_orientem]

That's just your opinion but, yes, I do object to sex change operations. Psychiatric help is what is needed.

[Walter]

That's just your opinion but, yes, I do object to sex change operations. Psychiatric help is what is needed.

are you trained in psychiatry ?

[Nearly Sane]

That's just your opinion but, yes, I do object to sex change operations. Psychiatric help is what is needed.

On what grounds do you object to sex change operations? What 'psychiatric help' are you referring to? And what psychiatric qualifications do you have?

[Gordon]

That's just your opinion but, yes, I do object to sex change operations. Psychiatric help is what is needed.

I think there are more issues here than you realise - I have some limited knowledge here since Mrs G (a CPN, until she retires in June) has worked in a team dealing with the assessment of candidates for gender re-assignment.

One is that surgery would not be offered unless it was clinically justified, since to conduct unjustified surgery would be unethical, and the second is that while psychiatric assessment is part of the process (hence Mrs G's involvement) that someone is approved for gender-re-assignment indicates that in their case any psychiatric support they did need would be secondary to the need for surgery.

[ad_orientem]

are you trained in psychiatry ?

No, but if a man thinks he's a woman, or vice versa, then that quite obviously suggests some sort of psychological disorder. That's not rocket science. A sex change operation is more than just an unnecessary procedure, just like chopping off a perfectly healthy leg. It's just as unethical.

[wigginhall]

I thought that clinical workers, including psychiatrists, had concluded, after several decades of investigation, that some trans people are best helped by transitioning.   The alternative for some is continual depression, bullying, and the danger  of suicide.   Of course, transitioning is not a universal panacea, and for others, you might 'watch and wait'.    Presumably, ad-O has studied the psychology of gender and sexuality. 

[Gordon]

No, but if a man thinks he's a woman, or vice versa, then that quite obviously suggests some sort of psychological disorder. That's not rocket science. A sex change operation is more than just an unnecessary procedure, just like chopping off a perfectly healthy leg.

You are arguing from ignorance, ad.

[wigginhall]

The same approach used to be used towards gays and lesbians.  They are obviously psychologically disturbed, should be offered conversion treatment, and not accepted as gay.   Fortunately, times have changed, and bigotry is seen for what it is.

[Nearly Sane]

No, but if a man thinks he's a woman, or vice versa, then that quite obviously suggests some sort of psychological disorder. That's not rocket science. A sex change operation is more than just an unnecessary procedure, just like chopping off a perfectly healthy leg. It's just as unethical.

Agreed it isn't rocket science, neither has it anything to do with psychiatry. Gender dysphoria is a medical condition.

[ad_orientem]

I thought that clinical workers, including psychiatrists, had concluded, after several decades of investigation, that some trans people are best helped by transitioning.   The alternative for some is continual depression, bullying, and the danger  of suicide.   Of course, transitioning is not a universal panacea, and for others, you might 'watch and wait'.    Presumably, ad-O has studied the psychology of gender and sexuality.

As I said, it ain't rocket science. Sex change operations do not solve the problem, rather it just panders to the delusion. Modern ideas of gender and sexuality is bollocks. It's just one big delusion itself. The first delusion is separating gender from sex.

[floo]

Thanks, Floo, at last I have a second reason for leaving, your classing me as one of the bad guys or, at the very least, as not one of the good guys!

Where did I say you were one of the bad guys, are you leaving the forum?

[Robbie]

I wondered the same, floo. Can't see how Owlswing fits into all this. Looking at his posts he is very angry all the time so maybe picks up on things that aren't directed at him.

Agree with you that Anchor is very kind; we'd all do well to emulate him.

[Gordon]

As I said, it ain't rocket science. Sex change operations do not solve the problem, rather it just panders to the delusion. Modern ideas of gender and sexuality is bollocks. It's just one big delusion itself. The first delusion is separating gender from sex.

No: just no. You really don't understand this since if you were right it would mean the medical and associated professions (inc. people like Mrs G) would be behaving unethically en masse.

[wigginhall]

As I said, it ain't rocket science. Sex change operations do not solve the problem, rather it just panders to the delusion. Modern ideas of gender and sexuality is bollocks. It's just one big delusion itself. The first delusion is separating gender from sex.

On the one hand, you say that trans people need psychiatric treatment, and then when I mention some ideas in psychiatry and psychotherapy, in relation to trans, you say that it's rubbish.    Well, obviously, I should defer to your superior knowledge.

[ad_orientem]

No: just no. You really don't understand this since if you were right it would mean the medical and associated professions (inc. people like Mrs G) would be behaving unethically en masse.

I do.

[ad_orientem]

On the one hand, you say that trans people need psychiatric treatment, and then when I mention some ideas in psychiatry and psychotherapy, in relation to trans, you say that it's rubbish.    Well, obviously, I should defer to your superior knowledge.

Good!

[Nearly Sane]

I do.

can I just check that it is akso your opinion that homosexuality should be treated as with 'psychiatric help'?

[Gordon]

I do.

Mrs G will be in from work later so I'll let her know that in doing part of her job for many years she has been acting unethically - she's bound to ask about your knowledge, qualifications and experience in this field - so what shall I tell her?

[Robbie]

It's my understanding that would-be transgender people do have quite a lot of psychiatric help,so as to be as sure as possible it is the right course. My knowledge comes from a clinic at the Charing X Hospital in London. Such treatment & surgery is not undertaken lightly.
Ad-o you are going away from youroriginal objection to a rapist being given transgender surgery and the motives of that person, most ,in fact vast majority do not fit that category, they're not rapists but ordinary people.

[Nearly Sane]

It's my understanding that would-be transgender people do have quite a lot of psychiatric help,so as to be as sure as possible it is the right course. My knowledge comes from a clinic at the Charing X Hospital in London. Such treatment & surgery is not undertaken lightly.
Ad-o you are going away from youroriginal objection to a rapist being given transgender surgery and the motives of that person, most ,in fact vast majority do not fit that category, they're not rapists but ordinary people.

He has to move from the original position because there is no point in addressing whether a specific case should have gender reassignment if he thinks there should be no gender assignment at all.

[ad_orientem]

can I just check that it is akso your opinion that homosexuality should be treated as with 'psychiatric help'?

To some degree, yes. I think the greater problem in both cases, however, is a spiritual one but that can only be addressed if one has faith. And no, I don't believe in "conversion", only that through faith one can fight such inclinations.

[Nearly Sane]

To some degree, yes. I think the greater problem in both cases, however, is a spiritual one but that can only be addressed if one has faith. And no, I don't believe in "conversion", only that through faith one can fight such inclinations.

So actually you don't think this because of psychiatric reasons or knowledge but because you see this as sin.

[Udayana]

It's my understanding that would-be transgender people do have quite a lot of psychiatric help,so as to be as sure as possible it is the right course. My knowledge comes from a clinic at the Charing X Hospital in London. Such treatment & surgery is not undertaken lightly.
Ad-o you are going away from youroriginal objection to a rapist being given transgender surgery and the motives of that person, most ,in fact vast majority do not fit that category, they're not rapists but ordinary people.

OK. But what would explain this part then:

"John Pilley, also known as Jane Anne, made legal history in 1999 when he became the first inmate in England and Wales to be granted permission for a sex change operation.

Pilley was serving life for the attempted murder and kidnapping of a woman taxi driver. It was later reported he decided to become a man again and was waiting to have his second operation on the NHS."

Was he let down by the NHS in making the first change or is being failed now or is just ... ? He could probably sue?

 

[Gordon]

Moderator:

Just to say this thread is more suited the Ethics & Freethought, so we will move it there later. Just noting this now for the convenience of those who've been posting here.