Author Topic: Progressive Christianity  (Read 22124 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2017, 05:34:21 PM »
Vlad,

Anything "could have" done something. Are you attempting a negative proof fallacy here? It's been a while.
I believe you've misunderstood what this fallacy entails, That HASN'T been a while.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2017, 06:07:01 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I believe you've misunderstood what this fallacy entails, That HASN'T been a while.

Then, as ever, you believe wrongly. I'll grant you that the pointlessness of "anything could have done anything" isn't a head on NPF, but it leaves the sentiment hanging in the air. What point did you even think you were making if not for "you can't discount God as a possibility"?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2017, 06:56:52 PM »
Vlad,

Then, as ever, you believe wrongly. I'll grant you that the pointlessness of "anything could have done anything" isn't a head on NPF, but it leaves the sentiment hanging in the air. What point did you even think you were making if not for "you can't discount God as a possibility"?
I'm not talking to you.

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2017, 07:45:42 PM »
I don't understand why science should promote atheism when, as we are about to find I think, the British have not been into science for ages, not many have wanted to be scientists and have merely enjoyed it's consumer products as diverting toys from a true and rounded intellectual life......and that includes diversion from an actual understanding of science.

As far as rationalism and the GBP is concerned.......Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha He He He He He Ho Ho Ho Ho Ho.......
It is the culture and philosophy of it that seeps into the everyday world of the people over many generations and then becomes the norm. You know the philosophical materialism you keep going on about. People/our modern culture has replaced the spiritual with the material god.

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2017, 07:55:27 PM »
I'm using the term "Iconoclasm" in a much broader sense here but it's essentially the same mentality. The Iconoclasts sought to strip the churches of religious imagery. Protestantism sought to strip the faith to its bare essentials, though quite who gets to decide what is essential and what isn't is another matter, though related of course. It was an application of rationalism which ended up throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not saying that the reformers didn't have any legitimate grievances. At the very least the Pope had become a tyrant. Not only did he claim to have universal jurisdiction over the whole Church but he also claimed to be a secular king. What really happened was everybody ended up being their own pope, their own little tyrant. Indeed, some of the worst acts that happened during the Reformation occurred between rival Protestant sects. They jumped out of the frying pan straight into the fire. All they had to do was look East, but the East had become a mere distant memory in the mind of the West. I think Melanchthon did go and see the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople though, thinking that the Reformer's rejection of the papacy would automatically endear them to the Patriarch, but Melanchthon was promptly told to get on his bike.
But you haven't explain the significance of icons. What is the big deal about having icon and why throwing them out caused problems, in your view? It could have just been a correlation, and that iconic loss had no effect on the situation. To me, as an atheist, they are just picture and statues etc.

Also, though it may be a bit of a large topic, from your post the question arises how is your church run to avoid tyrants and the like? Who leads it and governs it?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2017, 11:15:53 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I'm not talking to you.

The loss is all mine.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7928
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #81 on: March 29, 2017, 02:01:21 AM »
But you haven't explain the significance of icons. What is the big deal about having icon and why throwing them out caused problems, in your view? It could have just been a correlation, and that iconic loss had no effect on the situation. To me, as an atheist, they are just picture and statues etc.

Also, though it may be a bit of a large topic, from your post the question arises how is your church run to avoid tyrants and the like? Who leads it and governs it?

The seventh ecumenical council against the Iconoclasts goes into some detail regarding images but in a nutshell, images confirm to us that the Word became flesh and is why the Old Testament prohibition no longer applies. Again, it's a case of lex orandi lex credendi. Also the veneration payed to the icon traverses the image and reaches the one depicted in it. So in otherwords, if we believe that the Word actually became flesh then we should depict him. To us icons are not an optional extra but an integral part of how we pray because prayer reflects belief. In the same way one might say, if you don't celebrate the Ascension (just as an example) don't you believe it?

As for Church governance, then in the East we emphasis episcopal collegiality and here the ecumenical councils reign supreme. Any hierarchy that exists between the bishops of the East is really just an administrative convenience but at the end of the day they're just all bishops. It might make things a bit messy at times, bishops quite often fall out with each other but then that was always the case. What unites them all is their orthodoxy.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #82 on: March 29, 2017, 07:13:47 AM »
Vlad,

The loss is all mine.
That people are atheist because of science shows that they have confused science with atheism, confused methodological naturalism with philosophical naturalism.
That either is somehow justified because this has increased overtime is the fallacy of modernity and possibly argumentum ad populum.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #83 on: March 29, 2017, 07:35:14 AM »
That people are atheist because of science shows that they have confused science with atheism, confused methodological naturalism with philosophical naturalism.

Well I don't confuse science and atheism any more than I confuse knitting with ski-jumping and unlike your good self I do understand the difference between methodological and philosophical naturalism. 

Quote
That either is somehow justified because this has increased overtime is the fallacy of modernity and possibly argumentum ad populum.

I suspect your random sentence generator needs new batteries.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #84 on: March 29, 2017, 10:39:18 AM »
Vlad,

I thought you weren't talking to me? Oh well.

Quote
That people are atheist because of science...

Oh dear. "People" aren't atheists "because of science". People are atheists because there's no evidence for theism. That theists sometimes try to play on the turf of science (creationism for example) and science falsifies the effort is a secondary matter.

Quote
...shows that they have confused science with atheism, confused methodological naturalism with philosophical naturalism.

It shows no such thing because your premise is false, and the only confusion here is your confusion about what methodological naturalism and philosophical naturalism actually entail. That you've had these terms explained to you countless times only for the explanations to fall on deaf ears though suggests that you'll never get it.

Quote
That either is somehow justified because this has increased overtime is the fallacy of modernity and possibly argumentum ad populum.

Stop digging!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 10:47:37 AM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #85 on: March 29, 2017, 04:33:25 PM »
Link here to an interesting article.

The writer says that "progressive Christianity" will lead to the downfall of Christian beliefs.

By the phrase is meant; the diversity of interpretations of beliefs especially as they bend to encompass new historical and scientific findings. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2017/03/can-progressive-christianity-save-cure-christianity/?utm_source=[!]%20Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NL%20Nonreligious&utm_content=14395


The idea that "progressive Christianity" will lead to the downfall of Christian beliefs is something that has long been debated among Christians who've actually taken the trouble to read any of the literature. John Shelby Spong, who attempted to synthesise many of these ideas seemed full of enthusiasm for the future of the Christian faith in this regard. The major proponents for this kind of thinking in England were Bish John Robinson, who seemed to retreat a bit to more traditionalist thinking in later life, and Don Cupitt (The Sea of Faith), who moved more and more to an out-and-out atheist position.

However, the writer does seem more than a little bit out of touch with critical thinking, as revealed by the following comments:

Quote
  That Jesus and Paul fit into the category of failed “apocalyptic prophets” in significant ways is more of an unstated premise in academic work than something that’s consciously explored; but that’s beginning to change.

(Well, it's explicit in Schweitzer - and that was quite a while back)

Quote
The truth is that in some ways, we’re still in the historical infancy of critical academic analysis of the Bible, and particularly in our understanding of the theological implications that might emerge from this. In my most recent post, I’ve highlighted some of the unexplored areas here, and what both Christians and non-Christians can do to help break new ground in this regard. For now, though, there are many senses in we simply still don’t know what the implications of critical Biblical interpretation might be.

There may still be much research to be done, but it's been going on for at least a couple of a hundred years  (since scholars were at risk of losing only their jobs, and not their freedom or sometimes their lives, that is). If the end result of this critical enquiry is the loss of traditional faith, tough. That it should result in the extinction of Fundamentalism - I personally can't wait.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #86 on: March 29, 2017, 04:39:17 PM »
I rather think Jack, that we are at the point where you either believe Jesus death achieved something........or you don't.

We're certainly at the point of needing to decide whether Jesus' life achieved something (with the proviso of deciding which of the several portraits of Jesus in the NT is the most authentic). Cynic sage or Jewish End-time apocalyptic prophet seem to be the most likely to have any historical accuracy. Everything else is what was foisted on him by his adoring followers.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2017, 04:49:10 PM »
With regards to the Reformers their rationalism was that if something is not directly found in the scriptures then it is not necessary for salvation. That is a rationalism.

And one which was not particularly rigorous, since they were then faced with deciding what texts were authentic and divinely inspired. Basing their views on a slipshod text produced by Erasmus (which - for English readers became essentially the basis of the KJV) doesn't inspire any confidence in the divine authority of scripture in me.

I suppose the Orthodox and the Catholics have a slightly better argument in this regard, since they appeal to Church tradition and the interpretations of the Fathers to attempt an approach to 'Divine Truth', though that's 'a faith thing' in itself, and one which I haven't been able to swallow.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #88 on: March 29, 2017, 05:30:03 PM »
The seventh ecumenical council against the Iconoclasts goes into some detail regarding images but in a nutshell, images confirm to us that the Word became flesh and is why the Old Testament prohibition no longer applies. Again, it's a case of lex orandi lex credendi. Also the veneration payed to the icon traverses the image and reaches the one depicted in it. So in otherwords, if we believe that the Word actually became flesh then we should depict him. To us icons are not an optional extra but an integral part of how we pray because prayer reflects belief. In the same way one might say, if you don't celebrate the Ascension (just as an example) don't you believe it?

As for Church governance, then in the East we emphasis episcopal collegiality and here the ecumenical councils reign supreme. Any hierarchy that exists between the bishops of the East is really just an administrative convenience but at the end of the day they're just all bishops. It might make things a bit messy at times, bishops quite often fall out with each other but then that was always the case. What unites them all is their orthodoxy.
Pictures were for those who could not read. It was a practical policy for the ignorant and has now become something more which it wasn't at the start. It also is something material for the simple who would have found metaphysical ideas too "out there" to hold on to. Probably the lack of items to project onto may have not helped the burgeoning Protestant movement; plus leaders often provide this kind of unconscious projection phenomena, but I very much doubt it caused any real harm as you are claiming.


Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #89 on: March 29, 2017, 05:48:34 PM »
We're certainly at the point of needing to decide whether Jesus' life achieved something (with the proviso of deciding which of the several portraits of Jesus in the NT is the most authentic). Cynic sage or Jewish End-time apocalyptic prophet seem to be the most likely to have any historical accuracy. Everything else is what was foisted on him by his adoring followers.
But the accounts of JC are so worldly unreal that in the end it has to be seen as symbolic and collectively psychological.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #90 on: March 29, 2017, 06:09:55 PM »
Vlad,

I thought you weren't talking to me? Oh well.

Oh dear. "People" aren't atheists "because of science". People are atheists because there's no evidence for theism. That theists sometimes try to play on the turf of science (creationism for example) and science falsifies the effort is a secondary matter.

It shows no such thing because your premise is false, and the only confusion here is your confusion about what methodological naturalism and philosophical naturalism actually entail. That you've had these terms explained to you countless times only for the explanations to fall on deaf ears though suggests that you'll never get it.

Stop digging!
Hillside

I'm afraid when I say there are more atheists now I'm saying it like it is a bad thing.
But it is a bad thing because it is not because of science or rationality. I'm afraid religion is tolerated for it's weddings and punch at Christmas.....just like science is tolerated because of it's goodies. Not many want to be clergy and alas and alack not many want to be scientists.

To portray the increase in atheism as the march of science is pure delusion on your part. A modern myth easily blown. The reasons are simple people aren't religious, just like they are not scientific at heart or ''rational''......... (goodness knows is there not enough evidence for that).........but because they cant be ''arsed'' to be. 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 06:13:10 PM by Emergence-The musical »

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #91 on: March 29, 2017, 06:16:49 PM »
Well I don't confuse science and atheism any more than I confuse knitting with ski-jumping and unlike your good self I do understand the difference between methodological and philosophical naturalism. 

Really? I thought you just sat there going:
FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64323
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #92 on: March 29, 2017, 06:27:19 PM »
Blue hillside states:

Quote
..."People" aren't atheists "because of science"...

Vlad replies:


Hillside
....To portray the increase in atheism as the march of science is pure delusion on your part. ....

Mmmm

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #93 on: March 29, 2017, 06:28:51 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I'm afraid when I say there are more atheists now I'm saying it like it is a bad thing.

Why? And incidentally in your head is “more atheists” worse than “more people believing in gods in which I don’t believe”?

Quote
But it is a bad thing because it is not because of science or rationality. I'm afraid religion is tolerated for it's weddings and punch at Christmas.....just like science is tolerated because of it's goodies. Not many want to be clergy and alas and alack not many want to be scientists.

I’m aware that fewer want to be clerics (at least in the West) but I don’t know why you think fewer people want to be scientists. Either way though, why do you think fewer clerics to be a bad thing?

Quote
To portray the increase in atheism as the march of science is pure delusion on your part.

No it isn’t, not least because that’s not something I’ve said. Why are you lying again?

Quote
A modern myth easily blown.

It’s a “modern myth” because you’ve invented it. 

Quote
The reasons are simple people aren't religious, just like they are not scientific at heart or ''rational''......... (goodness knows is there not enough evidence for that).........but because they cant be ''arsed'' to be.

What are you even trying to say here?

Oh, and my last Reply (84) that you just ignored put you straight on this stuff already too by the way.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #94 on: March 29, 2017, 06:34:59 PM »
NS,

Quote
Blue hillside states:

Quote
..."People" aren't atheists "because of science"...

Vlad replies:

Quote from: Emergence-The musical on Today at 06:09:55 PM
Hillside
....To portray the increase in atheism as the march of science is pure delusion on your part. ....

Mmmm

It's weird innit. Vlad says, "you think black is white, blah blah blah...". I reply with a, "No, I think black is black" and he comes back with, "See, the trouble with you thinking black is white" etc.

Some kind of word blindness maybe? Comprehension problem perhaps? Who can say. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7928
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #95 on: March 29, 2017, 06:46:39 PM »
Pictures were for those who could not read. It was a practical policy for the ignorant and has now become something more which it wasn't at the start. It also is something material for the simple who would have found metaphysical ideas too "out there" to hold on to. Probably the lack of items to project onto may have not helped the burgeoning Protestant movement; plus leaders often provide this kind of unconscious projection phenomena, but I very much doubt it caused any real harm as you are claiming.

I think you underestimate the ancients. Faith and prayer is much more than reading, hearing and understanding. It involves all the senses, including sight, smell, taste. Posture also. I always thought that how a church and its liturgy look (that is if they have any liturgy at all) fairly accurately reflects its faith. Bare church, minimalist liturgy, long dull sermons....well, you get the picture.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 06:52:22 PM by ad_orientem »
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #96 on: March 29, 2017, 07:02:23 PM »
Blue hillside states:

Vlad replies:


Mmmm
Yes if only he had stopped at that without going on to suggest that maybe science did have something to do with it.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64323
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #97 on: March 29, 2017, 07:10:06 PM »
Yes if only he had stopped at that without going on to suggest that maybe science did have something to do with it.
You mean when he wrote this "That theists sometimes try to play on the turf of science (creationism for example) and science falsifies the effort is a secondary matter."!

Because that doesn't say anything you have stated he said either.

So that's at least three times you have stated bluehillside has said the opposite of what he actually wrote in three posts. It's not exactly a way to have a discussion.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #98 on: March 29, 2017, 07:15:49 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Yes if only he had stopped at that without going on to suggest that maybe science did have something to do with it.

Would it actually kill you just for once just to respond to what I actually say rather than to your straw man version of it?

Just once maybe?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Progressive Christianity
« Reply #99 on: March 29, 2017, 07:16:21 PM »
Really? I thought you just sat there going:
FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY: FALLACY

Not all the time Vlad: just when I read the contributions of certain posters, such as yourself. Sometimes it is like shooting fallacies in a barrel.