BST

[SteveH]

Evidence please.

My memory. I dare say I could find copies of contemporary newspaper accounts.

Most people don't live in the North or Scotland ...

I said especially, not exclusively.

... or the Channel Islands.

No, but LR did, back then.

[ProfessorDavey]

My memory. I dare say I could find copies of contemporary newspaper accounts.

Newspaper reports wouldn't tell you whether Most people didn't as you claimed.

I said especially, not exclusively.

But that could easily be outweighed by far greater numbers liking it in the south of the UK (where most people live). That's my point.

Anyhow, my issue isn't with GMT/BST change in principle, but the timing. Next year we will have to wait until 31st March for the clocks to go forward. And given that this is after the spring equinox there cannot be any claim that this adversely affects those in the north.

[floo]

Most people didn't, especially up North and in Scotland. Way down in the Channel Isles, the dark mornings wouldn't have been as noticable.

Sunrise is the same as here in North Wales, sunset is a few minutes later.

[Harrowby Hall]

My recollection is of going to work in the dark.

When I have been to France in winter, around New Year, I noticed that it wasn't light until 9,00am. It seemed bizarre going shopping in the dark.

The French have chosen to align their clocks with their neighbours in central Europe. In June it means that practically the whole of the time that most people are awake is daytime but in winter the days do seem short.

[ProfessorDavey]

Sunrise is the same as here in North Wales, sunset is a few minutes later.

If people in the North can cope with BST still being in place in the last week in October, then they can cope with the clock going forward again in mid Feb - I simply cannot understand why the dates for clocks going back and going forward are so unequal in relation to the winter solstice and spring/autumn equinox.

[Harrowby Hall]

Sunrise is the same as here in North Wales, sunset is a few minutes later.

In North Wales you are about 260 miles north of Guernsey, and about 1.5 degrees (about 60 miles at that latitude) further west.

In mid summer, sunrise will be earlier in North Wales than in Guernsey but later in winter, and sunset will be later in summer in North Wales than Guernsey and earlier in winter.

North Wales (say Conwy) is about 60 miles west of St Peter Port and therefore Conwy is always (in solar terms) about 6 minutes behind St Peter Port.

[jeremyp]

Don't forget to put your clocks forward one hour before you go to bed.

No. It's better to do it in the morning after you get up, so you don't lose an hour's sleep.

[Anchorman]

Eh - but regardless of whether or when you change the clocks you don't actually alter the amount of daylight.

   


However, you would haver to factor in the icreased use of electricity, the inconvienience of milk tankers clogging up roads, the added starain on an already streesed out dairy industry, etc.
Perhaps the matter should be devolved and not left in the hands of Westminster.

[jeremyp]

....and it would be a drain on dairy and beef farming in Scotland to boot. The electric bills would shoot up for starters, meaning that the price of milk and beef would escalate as well. As it is, most farmers struggle to get their work done in the limited daylight hours in December and January.

The stupidity of this argument never fails to astonish me.

There are about ten dairy and beef farmers in Scotland and millions of people who would rather have a lighter evening.

The other point is, of course, that nothing prevents a farmer from getting up whenever he or she pleases. If it's too dark to do any work until 9.30, don't get up until 9.30.

Here's a little clue. The hours of daylight in January are the same whether you are on BST, GMT, CET, or US East coast time.

[Anchorman]

The stupidity of this argument never fails to astonish me. There are about ten dairy and beef farmers in Scotland and millions of people who would rather have a lighter evening. The other point is, of course, that nothing prevents a farmer from getting up whenever he or she pleases. If it's too dark to do any work until 9.30, don't get up until 9.30. Here's a little clue. The hours of daylight in January are the same whether you are on BST, GMT, CET, or US East coast time.

Eh? I can name about fifteen dairy farms and another five beef within my parish alone. I can also point out to the alarminf rate of suicide and attempted suicide in the industry - one particular suicide too close to home. The industyry is at breaking point already; why strees it further because somer twit in the south east of England is miffed? Devolve it, and let those closest to the situation deal with it.

[Gordon]

An aspect of this, from the perspective here in Scotland, is that it is preferable that it is lighter in the morning when kids are going to school, in that traffic is heavier between 8 - 9 am with people going to work as kids are going to school, rather than it being lighter when kids leave school in the afternoon, since they do so before the onset of the evening rush hour.

[Anchorman]

An aspect of this, from the perspective here in Scotland, is that it is preferable that it is lighter in the morning when kids are going to school, in that traffic is heavier between 8 - 9 am with people going to work as kids are going to school, rather than it being lighter when kids leave school in the afternoon, since they do so before the onset of the evening rush hour.

Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember that insane Westminster experiment when they left the clocks as they were.
We were still going to school - on country roads - in the pitch black, with little or no street lighting, no pavements, and trucks whizzing past.
Another reason why, if Westminster insists on this, it should be a devolved matter.

[floo]

In North Wales you are about 260 miles north of Guernsey, and about 1.5 degrees (about 60 miles at that latitude) further west.

In mid summer, sunrise will be earlier in North Wales than in Guernsey but later in winter, and sunset will be later in summer in North Wales than Guernsey and earlier in winter.

North Wales (say Conwy) is about 60 miles west of St Peter Port and therefore Conwy is always (in solar terms) about 6 minutes behind St Peter Port.

At present Guernsey and North East Wales are exactly the same time for sunrise, I have just looked it up.

[Udayana]

An aspect of this, from the perspective here in Scotland, is that it is preferable that it is lighter in the morning when kids are going to school, in that traffic is heavier between 8 - 9 am with people going to work as kids are going to school, rather than it being lighter when kids leave school in the afternoon, since they do so before the onset of the evening rush hour.

ROSPA advocate SDST on the basis that there would less accidents and deaths:

 https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/road-users/british-summertime-fact-sheet/

‘More children will die because of the darker mornings.’ 
This is not true: the effect of SDST is to save children’s lives, even more so in Scotland than in England and
Wales, because Scotland has longer, darker winter evenings, which is where the principal casualties occur.

[Harrowby Hall]

At present Guernsey and North East Wales are exactly the same time for sunrise, I have just looked it up.

North east Wales - closer to the English border? You're probably right - it will be almost due north of Guernsey and since we are just a matter of days after the equinox there will be little difference. Check what time sunrise and sunset will be on the summer solstice and you should find that the further north you are the longer the day will be.

The building of the railways lead to the standardisation of time in Britain.

[jeremyp]

Eh? I can name about fifteen dairy farms and another five beef within my parish alone.

Are you so stupid that you don't realise that the first part of what I said was hyperbole for effect? The point is that there are very few of them in comparison to everybody else. Why should the tail wag the dog?

I can also point out to the alarminf rate of suicide and attempted suicide in the industry - one particular suicide too close to home. The industyry is at breaking point already; why strees it further because somer twit in the south east of England is miffed? Devolve it, and let those closest to the situation deal with it.

The farming industry is not at breaking point because it's dark in winter. There's no reason to suppose that the suicide rate will increase just because we ditch daylight saving time.

[jeremyp]

An aspect of this, from the perspective here in Scotland, is that it is preferable that it is lighter in the morning when kids are going to school, in that traffic is heavier between 8 - 9 am with people going to work as kids are going to school, rather than it being lighter when kids leave school in the afternoon, since they do so before the onset of the evening rush hour.

Traffic is also heavy in the evenings when they come home. Moreover, people are more tired in the evenings. Also, if it would be dark at 9.30 under BST, then it is currently dark at 8.30 under GMT.

There was a study done a few years back that concluded that BST all year round would save lives due to it not being so dark in the evenings.

[Anchorman]

Are you so stupid that you don't realise that the first part of what I said was hyperbole for effect? The point is that there are very few of them in comparison to everybody else. Why should the tail wag the dog?
The farming industry is not at breaking point because it's dark in winter. There's no reason to suppose that the suicide rate will increase just because we ditch daylight saving time.

Well, if you want milk on your cornflakes and steak on your plate - at a price you can afford - that's quite a good reason why the tail should wag the dog, I'd suggest.
Because when the insane Brexit is finally here, the prices will go up anyway with or without BST ajustment....removing the winter chnge will just make them higher, thats all. Up to you, though.

[jeremyp]

Well, if you want milk on your cornflakes and steak on your plate - at a price you can afford

Are you trying to suggest that won't happen without daylight saving time? Tell me your reasoning.

Not that most Scottish meat is at the economy end of the market anyway.

Because when the insane Brexit is finally here, the prices will go up anyway with or without BST ajustment....removing the winter chnge will just make them higher, thats all. Up to you, though.

How will it make them higher? You have just given me bare assertions without any reasoning.

[ProfessorDavey]

Eh? I can name about fifteen dairy farms and another five beef within my parish alone. I can also point out to the alarminf rate of suicide and attempted suicide in the industry - one particular suicide too close to home. The industyry is at breaking point already; why strees it further because somer twit in the south east of England is miffed? Devolve it, and let those closest to the situation deal with it.

Repeat after me - 'having BST or not does not change the amount of daylight during the winter'.

[ProfessorDavey]

   


However, you would haver to factor in the icreased use of electricity, the inconvienience of milk tankers clogging up roads, the added starain on an already streesed out dairy industry, etc.
Perhaps the matter should be devolved and not left in the hands of Westminster.

Repeat after me - 'having BST or not does not change the amount of daylight during the winter'.

[jeremyp]

Repeat after me - 'having BST or not does not change the amount of daylight during the winter'.

The only solution to Anchorman's problem of there not being enough hours in the day is to relocate all of the Scottish farmers closer to the equator.

[SteveH]

Here's a little clue. The hours of daylight in January are the same whether you are on BST, GMT, CET, or US East coast time.

Exactly - so what's the point of changing the system? It could, in any case, be done on an individual-employer basis, altering the hours of work if the majority of employees wanted it.

[SusanDoris]

Exactly - so what's the point of changing the system? It could, in any case, be done on an individual-employer basis, altering the hours of work if the majority of employees wanted it.

It can probably be classified as psychological! We just sort of feel better when the evenings are lighter, even though we know that the daylight hours are what they are, regardless of clocks/!

[jeremyp]

It can probably be classified as psychological! We just sort of feel better when the evenings are lighter, even though we know that the daylight hours are what they are, regardless of clocks/!

But wouldn't that be an argument to stay on BST all year round?