Was Jesus a prophet?

[Dicky Underpants]

Love; DU. That should be what defines a Christian. Love not only for those fellow believers, but those who don't believe and those who ridicule and condemn those who believe. Care for friend and foe, forgiveness in every situaation. Hey, no-one said it was easy.

No, that recipe is certainly not easy. However, it could be argued that those mediaeval Catholics who ended up burning heretics were also showing love, because they genuinely believed that if the heretics in question had 'got the wrong beliefs', they might end up burning forever in hell (something Shaw seems to be arguing for in St Joan).
Might I suggest that Buddhism, with its emphasis on compassion, has at least done less harm in history than Christianity with its emphasis on love?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Anchs,

Love; DU. That should be what defines a Christian. Love not only for those fellow believers, but those who don't believe and those who ridicule and condemn those who believe.

Do people do that, or do they ridicule and condemn what people do with their beliefs? Personally I see no reason to treat someone that way just for having certain beliefs, however irrational I happen to think them to be. On the other hand, when reason has failed then ridicule and condemnation are legitimate I think when some insist on acting on their beliefs in respect of, say, their treatment of homosexuals.

For what it’s worth, there seems to me to be an inverse relationship between “big C” Christianity and “small c” christian behaviour – the more someone is the former, the less he’ll demonstrate the latter with someone like Fred Phelps as the exemplar of the phenomenon.       

Care for friend and foe, forgiveness in every situaation. Hey, no-one said it was easy.

Which I applaud, though I see no reason to use it to define Christians. Some of us try to live that way anyway even though we’re not Christians, or indeed of any other faith.

[ad_orientem]

The Muslims say he was but what is the Christian consensus (if it's possible to reach one) on this?

Can Jesus be the son of God as well as a prophet?  I do believe there is a scripture which indirectly states that Jesus is the last prophet.

The reason I ask is that a number of American preachers have claimed to have prophesied Donald Trump as God's man in the White House.  This made me wonder that if Jesus was a prophet then what is God doing sending inferior prophets after having sent his son?

A prophet and much more. Also a priest, a king and God himself.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ad,

A prophet and much more. Also a priest, a king and God himself.

That last one especially is a remarkable claim indeed, and I'm not sure what or where it was that you think he was king of either. 

Still, no doubt at some point in the future you or someone else will share with us a method to suggest why these claims should be privileged above just guessing about stuff. I for one look forward to it.

[Dicky Underpants]

ad,

That last one especially is a remarkable claim indeed, and I'm not sure what or where it was that you think he was king of either. 

Still, no doubt at some point in the future you or someone else will share with us a method to suggest why these claims should be privileged above just guessing about stuff. I for one look forward to it.

Hi blue

I strongly suspect there is no 'method' (now there's a surprise). The Biblical record itself is tenuous and contradictory, but just for the record, here are a few details to contemplate:

1. Priest.  He is referred to as "A priest forever according to the order of Melchizedech" in the Epistle to the Hebrews. Melchizedech gets a couple of references in the OT, once in a Psalm (which the Epistle quotes), and once in Genesis 14, in the story of Abraham. Seems to have been a bloke who came out of nowhere, and whose 'priesthood' pre-dated the Levite priesthood.

2. King. He is referred to as "King of the Jews" only by non-Jewish people in the NT - the Magi, the Roman soldiers and Pilate (who had the board fixed on the cross reading Iesus Nazareni Rex Iudorum, and in Aramaic and Greek as well). The Jews around said "Don't write that, write 'He said he was King of the Jews').

3.God. Well there are two contradictory texts in the same chapter of John's gospel for a start:

9]"He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?"

John.14

28] " If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."

John 14.

The rest is the result of several hundred years of speculation.

Sounds all rather nebulous to me.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Dicky,

I strongly suspect there is no 'method' (now there's a surprise). The Biblical record itself is tenuous and contradictory, but just for the record, here are a few details to contemplate:

1. Priest.  He is referred to as "A priest forever according to the order of Melchizedech" in the Epistle to the Hebrews. Melchizedech gets a couple of references in the OT, once in a Psalm (which the Epistle quotes), and once in Genesis 14, in the story of Abraham. Seems to have been a bloke who came out of nowhere, and whose 'priesthood' pre-dated the Levite priesthood.

2. King. He is referred to as "King of the Jews" only by non-Jewish people in the NT - the Magi, the Roman soldiers and Pilate (who had the board fixed on the cross reading Iesus Nazareni Rex Iudorum, and in Aramaic and Greek as well). The Jews around said "Don't write that, write 'He said he was King of the Jews').

3.God. Well there are two contradictory texts in the same chapter of John's gospel for a start:

9]"He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?"

John.14

28] " If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."

John 14.

The rest is the result of several hundred years of speculation.

Sounds all rather nebulous to me.

Thanks for this – interesting references. Indeed, I’m often struck by the “Lords”, “Kings”, “Masters” etc piled on to these deities like medals on a two-bit African potentate. As you say, it’s all a bit nebulous in any case and these titles seem to have been added after the event as honorifics rather than as formal titles in his lifetime.   

I wonder too if the “ever so ‘umble” Jesus in which we’re told to believe would himself have welcomed titles of this kind or thought them unnecessarily grandiose. I suppose “an early moral philosopher and soothsayer who for his time had some interesting things to say” is insufficiently laudatory for some, but it’d make for a more rational basis for discussion I think.

[Sassy]

The Muslims say he was but what is the Christian consensus (if it's possible to reach one) on this?

Can Jesus be the son of God as well as a prophet?  I do believe there is a scripture which indirectly states that Jesus is the last prophet.

The reason I ask is that a number of American preachers have claimed to have prophesied Donald Trump as God's man in the White House.  This made me wonder that if Jesus was a prophet then what is God doing sending inferior prophets after having sent his son?

I think you are confused:

Joel 2. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Jesus was the Prophet who would bring the final truth of God.
" My words are Spirit and they are truth."
John 4 shows the woman at the well, a Samaritan also believed this to be the case.

Jesus was the Prophet who brought the final truth but those in Christ when the Spirit came upon them would learn of things
to come.

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

We knew false Prophet's would come just as we knew the children of God would prophesy.

Jesus is as all men of God were Prophets who told of the things to come.
But Jesus was more importantly the 'Messiah' which no other Prophet was or will ever be.

So the thing missing from the beliefs of Muslims is the truth about Jesus being the Messiah the Son of God.
He did as his FATHER would do. Hence the Muslim do not worship the same God as the Jews.

[floo]

You keep on about the elusive 'truth' Sass, you might think you have it, but cannot prove it to be so. The Bible is just a collection of documents by a number of different authors, it has no more credibility than the Qur'an.

[Sassy]

You keep on about the elusive 'truth' Sass, you might think you have it, but cannot prove it to be so. The Bible is just a collection of documents by a number of different authors, it has no more credibility than the Qur'an.

I think the truth is that it isn't me who has to prove anything.
The truth is you have never learned the way of God and so do not know what is truth or how to find it.

So until you have actually sought truth for the purpose of wanting to know the truth with a good and obedient heart, you are not in a position to judge what others who have, actually know. x

[trippymonkey]

WELLLL That gets the award for best 'get out of jail' this year !?!?!?

[floo]

I think the truth is that it isn't me who has to prove anything.
The truth is you have never learned the way of God and so do not know what is truth or how to find it.

So until you have actually sought truth for the purpose of wanting to know the truth with a good and obedient heart, you are not in a position to judge what others who have, actually know. x

Your post is funny, Sass!

[Sassy]

You keep on about the elusive 'truth' Sass, you might think you have it, but cannot prove it to be so. The Bible is just a collection of documents by a number of different authors, it has no more credibility than the Qur'an.

What truth is it that I cannot prove?
Truth is, you have no knowledge to back up or support your statement because you don't know what you are talking about...
There never was any credibility to the Koran. If you knew anything you would know allah never actually did anything for his followers or anyone else. The most silent god of any religion in history.. Read up and learn you might have something interesting to offer then,.

[Sassy]

WELLLL That gets the award for best 'get out of jail' this year !?!?!?

You have to find your way to the prison before you can know how to get out of it...

[floo]

What truth is it that I cannot prove?
Truth is, you have no knowledge to back up or support your statement because you don't know what you are talking about...
There never was any credibility to the Koran. If you knew anything you would know allah never actually did anything for his followers or anyone else. The most silent god of any religion in history.. Read up and learn you might have something interesting to offer then,.

Sass, you have no evidence to support any of your statements about matters of faith. The Bible is no more credible than the Qur'an. You keep stating as a fact something which is only a belief.

[Shaker]

What truth is it that I cannot prove?

This one for starters:

I think the truth is that it isn't me who has to prove anything.

[Sassy]

This one for starters:

Is that a truth or a statement of belief about something?

[Shaker]

Is that a truth or a statement of belief about something?

You claim that it is the former, whereas everybody else knows it to be the latter.

[floo]

A thought just struck me when I was replying to a post on another religious forum, could Jesus have been on the autism spectrum?

Having experience of Asperger's syndrome, as I have grandson (15) who has been diagnosed with it, and a husband who in all probability has it, I wonder if Jesus had it too? It seems like he was an intelligent guy, like my husband and grandson, but some aspects of his behaviour weren't quite normal and a bit obsessive, if reported correctly.

[DaveM]

With reference to the original question a couple of comments from a latecomer to the thread.

The Biblical view of prophecy has always recognised two clear components to this gift.  First foretelling, or being given some special insight of things yet to take place some time in the future and, second forth telling, which can perhaps be best defined as receiving some specific message or insight from the Lord which applies to His people in the present time.  Often this could be a message of correction to get the church back to the things they should be busy with.  Thus a church member who received and conveys a message such as, 'stop spending so much of your money on nice to have things like fancy electronics for your worship team. Rather plough considerably more of it into helping the poor an destitute' could well be exercising prophecy in the form of forth telling.  Scripture lays down clear guidelines on how such messages are to be evaluated before being acted upon.

When Paul urges the Christians at Corinth to earnestly desire the higher gifts but especially that they might prophesy, he almost certainly had the forth telling component of prophecy primarily in mind.  It is important for any church to be aware of what specific tasks or roles the Lord might have for them in their specific situations.

Jesus was widely recognized as a teacher, a priest and a prophet (both components) by many of His day and not only His followers. In addition Christians, of course, also recognise Him as their true King, as Messiah and as God Himself.     

[floo]

With reference to the original question a couple of comments from a latecomer to the thread.

The Biblical view of prophecy has always recognised two clear components to this gift.  First foretelling, or being given some special insight of things yet to take place some time in the future and, second forth telling, which can perhaps be best defined as receiving some specific message or insight from the Lord which applies to His people in the present time.  Often this could be a message of correction to get the church back to the things they should be busy with.  Thus a church member who received and conveys a message such as, 'stop spending so much of your money on nice to have things like fancy electronics for your worship team. Rather plough considerably more of it into helping the poor an destitute' could well be exercising prophecy in the form of forth telling.  Scripture lays down clear guidelines on how such messages are to be evaluated before being acted upon.

When Paul urges the Christians at Corinth to earnestly desire the higher gifts but especially that they might prophesy, he almost certainly had the forth telling component of prophecy primarily in mind.  It is important for any church to be aware of what specific tasks or roles the Lord might have for them in their specific situations.

Jesus was widely recognized as a teacher, a priest and a prophet (both components) by many of His day and not only His followers. In addition Christians, of course, also recognise Him as their true King, as Messiah and as God Himself.     

Really, and your evidence for that is?

[SusanDoris]

Funny, isn't it, how prophecy can only be seen to be a lucky guess, or an unlucky guess, way after the prophecy has been made!
Funny, too, that nowadays, with so much better information around, how the number of well-known, listened-too prophets is not in the headlines!

[Sebastian Toe]

....as God Himself.     

Not quite all Christians would agree!

[DaveM]

Really, and your evidence for that is?

I could provide plenty of Scriptural passages but for the moment need only point out that Islam recognized Jesus as both prophet and teacher. Not sure about His role as a priest. Perhaps Gabriella might have the answer here.

[Shaker]

I could provide plenty of Scriptural passages [...]

No; she said evidence, not assertion.

[DaveM]

No; she said evidence, not assertion.

So when Islam states that it is a religion that recognises Jesus as a prophet, that is not evidence that Islam recognises Jesus as a prophet, it is merely an assertion.  Remarkable