Christianity and Reincarnation

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

It is said that about 25% of Christians today believe in reincarnation.

Origen, a early church father, is said to have believed in reincarnation and some passages in the bible itself are said to indicate reincarnation. Some texts like the Gospel of Thomas, recovered at the Nag Hammadi site, seem to refer to reincarnation. Kabbalists and some others in Judaism seem to believe in reincarnation. Some Christians who had NDE's have talked of people waiting for reincarnation in the after-life.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html

Is reincarnation the forgotten doctrine in Christianity?

Any views?

Sriram

[ad_orientem]

I'm not sure Origen believed in reincarnation rather that the soul pre-existed the body. Origen did have some funny views though, which is why he was posthumously anathematised by the Church.

I don't think reincarnation is held by anyone except on the fringes, new agers and semi-buddhists. It's not anywhere in the scriptures.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hi everyone,

It is said that about 25% of Christians today believe in reincarnation.

Origen, a early church father, is said to have believed in reincarnation and some passages in the bible itself are said to indicate reincarnation. Some texts like the Gospel of Thomas, recovered at the Nag Hammadi site, seem to refer to reincarnation. Kabbalists and some others in Judaism seem to believe in reincarnation. Some Christians who had NDE's have talked of people waiting for reincarnation in the after-life.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html

Is reincarnation the forgotten doctrine in Christianity?

Any views?

Sriram

It is a point of contradiction with the doctrine of salvation since it depends on self improvement and karma which is contrary to the idea of forgiveness and atonement in Christianity.

[Anchorman]

The Gnostic literature was an amalgum of Greek, Persian and Christuian mysticism and written far later than any 'accepted' csnonical Scripture and is therefore not part of any mainstream Christian thought process.

[floo]

Not that I really believe in reincarnation, but occasionally I have wondered if the sense of deja vu one gets occasionally, when in a situation or place you have never been before, could indicate a previous life.

[Robbie]

Me too floo. I don't really believe in reincarnation tho' it's a nice thought, especially if your life has been a terrible struggle. Christians believe in spiritual rebirth.I've heard some Christians say that reincarnation is not incompatible with Christianity, Anchor says otherwise. I say, it's up to you what you believe, anything's possible.

[Anchorman]

I cannot see any point where the Christian doctrine of eternal life through Christ Jesus is compatable with reincarnation.

[floo]

I cannot see any point where the Christian doctrine of eternal life through Christ Jesus is compatable with reincarnation.

But that is only a unsupportable idea like reincarnation.

[Anchorman]

But that is only a unsupportable idea like reincarnation.

-
The O/P was regarding a doctrine which is not part of the Christian faith. Should you wish to discuss the doctrine of salvation through grace, then there are other threads for that purpose.
Failing that, can you provide any scriptural basis which positively affirms the idea of reincarnation?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But that is only a unsupportable idea like reincarnation.

No it's a coherent position.
You take different ideas  and compare and look for compatibility.
In some sense both the premises of Christianity and Hinduism are reasonable but reasonableness doesn't guarantee correctness.

Aren't you being a bit incontinent with your antireligious statements?

The great world views are IMHO variations of Abrahamic monotheism, Monism and Philosophical naturalism.
Antitheistic ''youaintseenme-ism'' is not a great world view.

[Dicky Underpants]

I'm not sure Origen believed in reincarnation rather that the soul pre-existed the body. Origen did have some funny views though, which is why he was posthumously anathematised by the Church.

I don't think reincarnation is held by anyone except on the fringes, new agers and semi-buddhists. It's not anywhere in the scriptures.

I'd be interested to hear the Christian take on these notorious scriptures then:

"Behold, I will send you Eli'jah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.

 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse"

Malachi 4: 5,6

" And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Eli'jah must come?"  He replied, "Eli'jah does come, and he is to restore all things;
 but I tell you that Eli'jah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands."
Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist."
Matt 17: 10-13

" And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No."
"They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?"
John 1: 21 &25

(The last one, of course, being a contradiction of what Jesus is supposed to have said in the previous quote.)

[Dicky Underpants]

It is a point of contradiction with the doctrine of salvation since it depends on self improvement and karma which is contrary to the idea of forgiveness and atonement in Christianity.

The contraries exist within Christianity itself: atonement being mainly Pauline*, and the idea of "as you sow, so shall you reap" being explicit elsewhere.

*Marks gospel (the earliest, of course) says nothing more than "and to give his life as a ransom for many", which almost sounds like an afterthought, or a sop to the Paulinists.

[Sriram]

Some thoughts......

1. Certain passages in the bible seem to indicate that people can be reborn as some one else.....Elijah as John the Baptist,  for example.
 
2. Early church fathers such as Origen seem to have believed in reincarnation.

3. Gilgul is a Jewish concept (in the Kabbala) that refers to reincarnation. So certain sects of Judaism believe in reincarnation. Maybe Jesus did too.

4. At the Council of Nicea  (according to the OP article) it was decided to eliminate all ideas of preexistence and reincarnation and stick to the 'faith' idea.

5. Some western philosophers like Pythagoras believed in reincarnation.

In my opinion, reincarnation as a concept is more just and universal than faith based salvation. Reincarnation implies that life is about self development and everyone eventually attains salvation and freedom. No exceptions. Like children in school moving up little by little and eventually passing out. It is seen as a natural law of nature rather than as a whimsical decision by a God.

I believe that more and more Christians are beginning to accept reincarnation as a meaningful way of understanding life. The idea of  growth and development in life through varied experiences in different lifetimes is positive and motivating. Life ceases to be unjust and random.  Seen with the concept of Karma, reincarnation could also explain why there is so much difference in circumstances of different people in the world.

[Robbie]

It's a very attractive belief Sririam and I admit that I would like to believe it.I need to open myself up more to understand, am certainly not prepared to rule out reincarnation. What Dicky has said is food for thought.

[floo]

No it's a coherent position.
You take different ideas  and compare and look for compatibility.
In some sense both the premises of Christianity and Hinduism are reasonable but reasonableness doesn't guarantee correctness.

Aren't you being a bit incontinent with your antireligious statements?

The great world views are IMHO variations of Abrahamic monotheism, Monism and Philosophical naturalism.
Antitheistic ''youaintseenme-ism'' is not a great world view.

It is no more coherent than reincarnation.

[ad_orientem]

I'd be interested to hear the Christian take on these notorious scriptures then:

"Behold, I will send you Eli'jah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.

 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse"

Malachi 4: 5,6

" And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Eli'jah must come?"  He replied, "Eli'jah does come, and he is to restore all things;
 but I tell you that Eli'jah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands."
Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist."
Matt 17: 10-13

" And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No."
"They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?"
John 1: 21 &25

(The last one, of course, being a contradiction of what Jesus is supposed to have said in the previous quote.)

Elijah is just a type, a figure.

[2Corrie]

It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment.  Hebrews 9:27

[Sriram]

Not that I really believe in reincarnation, but occasionally I have wondered if the sense of deja vu one gets occasionally, when in a situation or place you have never been before, could indicate a previous life.

Floo,

You once had a rather unique experience in terms of sudden healing of your ailment.  You didn't pursue that direction of experiences and take it further. You preferred to dismiss it as 'probably having some natural explanation' and went back to mundane things.   

If you had investigated your healing further or tried to repeat it for similar ailments....you might have discovered something very interesting about life.

Merely sitting around wondering about things doesn't help. One should be willing to face the unknown and experience seemingly extraordinary things.

[torridon]

Not that I really believe in reincarnation, but occasionally I have wondered if the sense of deja vu one gets occasionally, when in a situation or place you have never been before, could indicate a previous life.

Deja vu can be explained simply as an artefact of the way conscious experience is produced, there being a multiple intermediate drafts as novel sensory input is tested and refined against memory and expectation; just occasionally we remember one of those intermediate drafts so it feels like it has happened before. No need for fantastic explanations like reincarnation which make no sense given our current knowledge base about the nature of life.  In fact, occasional deja vu is considered a healthy symptom, showing your subliminal preconscious processes are still working.

[torridon]

It's a very attractive belief Sririam and I admit that I would like to believe it.I need to open myself up more to understand, am certainly not prepared to rule out reincarnation. What Dicky has said is food for thought.

Reincarnation may be possible in far future thanks to medical science.  Head transplants for instance would be a defacto form of reincarnation and the first attempt at that is not far off.  Further ahead, more in the realms of science fiction, we may be able to capture a person in digital form and store him/her on a cloud server to be reincarnated into a suitable synthetic body.  Like everything else, a 'person' can be viewed as an information product eventually.  The idea that this already happens, naturally, is wishful whacko imo, it would be a massively complex process.

[Sriram]

It's a very attractive belief Sririam and I admit that I would like to believe it.I need to open myself up more to understand, am certainly not prepared to rule out reincarnation. What Dicky has said is food for thought.

Robinson,

1. Reincarnation balances out many of the apparent inequalities that we see everyday.

2. It sets a system by which people can experience varied situations and develop. It  enables people to grow and learn over several lifetimes.

3. It enables moral issues to be sorted out and provides a framework for Karma to get neutralized.

4. The concept of reincarnation does not create a fundamental distinction of  'good people' and 'bad people'. It thinks of all people as having base animal tendencies of selfishness, competitiveness, insecurities... to begin with. As they grow, they shed these tendencies and acquire divine qualities.

5. It is not a religious concept but a philosophical one (though it forms the basis of Hinduism).

6. Some people like Ian Stevenson have done fairly extensive research on reincarnation and have found some evidence (even in Muslim countries where reincarnation is not a accepted religious concept). It is of course extremely difficult to find conclusive evidence in such matters.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/ian-stevensone28099s-case-for-the-afterlife-are-we-e28098skepticse28099-really-just-cynics/

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2016/12/REI35.pdf

Cheers.

Sriram

[Sriram]

Reincarnation may be possible in far future thanks to medical science.  Head transplants for instance would be a defacto form of reincarnation and the first attempt at that is not far off.  Further ahead, more in the realms of science fiction, we may be able to capture a person in digital form and store him/her on a cloud server to be reincarnated into a suitable synthetic body.  Like everything else, a 'person' can be viewed as an information product eventually.  The idea that this already happens, naturally, is wishful whacko imo, it would be a massively complex process.

torridon,

If we only accept the rather obvious  idea of an independent Self or Subject ...nothing is more simple than reincarnation!!!!

[torridon]

torridon,

If we only accept the rather obvious  idea of an independent Self or Subject ...nothing is more simple than reincarnation!!!!

Accepting that means ignoring all that we have discovered to date through study and research.  What point is there in education if our attitude is to ignore what we have learned ?

[Sriram]

Accepting that means ignoring all that we have discovered to date through study and research.  What point is there in education if our attitude is to ignore what we have learned ?

How exactly do our findings conflict with the idea of an independent Self or Subject or Consciousness?!!

[torridon]

How exactly do our findings conflict with the idea of an independent Self or Subject or Consciousness?!!

No surgeon has ever opened a body up and found a self inside.  No neuroscientist has ever discovered a master neuron in the brain, and the very idea is self-defeating, if you can excuse the awful pun. There is no ontological basis for a self, rather the feeling of selfhood is a by-product of a fully functioning working brain; all you need to do is go to sleep and the self evaporates.  When we wake up stored memories recover our sense of selfhood to where it left off, a bit like your laptop restores your apps following hibernation or sleep.