Author Topic: Christianity and Reincarnation  (Read 15209 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2017, 07:41:14 AM »
No surgeon has ever opened a body up and found a self inside.  No neuroscientist has ever discovered a master neuron in the brain, and the very idea is self-defeating, if you can excuse the awful pun. There is no ontological basis for a self, rather the feeling of selfhood is a by-product of a fully functioning working brain; all you need to do is go to sleep and the self evaporates.  When we wake up stored memories recover our sense of selfhood to where it left off, a bit like your laptop restores your apps following hibernation or sleep.
Ah...... a gentleman reductionist on an early morning saunter through the philosophical morning rendering a poetic paeon to frosty reductionism.

torridon

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2017, 07:55:57 AM »
Ah...... a gentleman reductionist on an early morning saunter through the philosophical morning rendering a poetic paeon to frosty reductionism.
;D  ;D very nice Vlad

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2017, 08:12:12 AM »
Robinson,

1. Reincarnation balances out many of the apparent inequalities that we see everyday.

2. It sets a system by which people can experience varied situations and develop. It  enables people to grow and learn over several lifetimes.

3. It enables moral issues to be sorted out and provides a framework for Karma to get neutralized.

4. The concept of reincarnation does not create a fundamental distinction of  'good people' and 'bad people'. It thinks of all people as having base animal tendencies of selfishness, competitiveness, insecurities... to begin with. As they grow, they shed these tendencies and acquire divine qualities.

5. It is not a religious concept but a philosophical one (though it forms the basis of Hinduism).

6. Some people like Ian Stevenson have done fairly extensive research on reincarnation and have found some evidence (even in Muslim countries where reincarnation is not a accepted religious concept). It is of course extremely difficult to find conclusive evidence in such matters.

Hi Sriram.
Just a few observations.

Point 1. This is obviously better than the bleak and cruel atheist theory that there is no real justice. However IMO there is the kind of danger of inaction and fatalism in it. Also it is an exercise in moral accountancy which seems to rule out mercy and forgiveness.

Point 2. How many reincarnations are we supposed to have had? You seem to be suggesting a system where the human race should be growing and developing. To me that is an overoptimistic assessment of our predicament.

Point3. Where and how are moral issues being sorted out? An accusation levelled at Christianity is how can its claim that the devil was defeated at the crucifixion be true. But Christians can always turn round and talk about fulfilment at the second coming, personal transformation and the old adage ''Christianity hasn't failed it just hasn't been tried''. Karma though seems like an inexorable fixture and rule of the universe and we would expect to be able to see growth and improvement.

Point4 I do like philosophy and I do see where it is coming from although I cant support it.

Feel free to tear my points down philosophically and thanks for such a succinct and user friendly exposition.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 08:14:31 AM by Emergence-The musical »

SusanDoris

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2017, 08:21:51 AM »
I'm posting to support everything that torridon says. How anyone can still believe in reincarnation in this day and age is really beyond belief. It's a fun idea, but that's where it should stay- in the world of make believe.
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floo

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2017, 08:24:25 AM »
Floo,

You once had a rather unique experience in terms of sudden healing of your ailment.  You didn't pursue that direction of experiences and take it further. You preferred to dismiss it as 'probably having some natural explanation' and went back to mundane things.   

If you had investigated your healing further or tried to repeat it for similar ailments....you might have discovered something very interesting about life.

Merely sitting around wondering about things doesn't help. One should be willing to face the unknown and experience seemingly extraordinary things.

I believe spontaneous healing can occur occasionally, but I don't think it is of supernatural origin.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2017, 08:32:39 AM »
I'm posting to support everything that torridon says. How anyone can still believe in reincarnation in this day and age is really beyond belief. It's a fun idea, but that's where it should stay- in the world of make believe.
This day and age?
Didn't you mean to say 'How anyone can still believe in reincarnation in Chipping Sodbury is really beyond belief''?

Anchorman

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2017, 08:43:01 AM »
I couldn't care less how many reincarnations on 'might' have had. For the Christian, the answer is very simple. As 2 Corrie quoted; NONE. Well, that's the end of the thread on the Christian topic, then......
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2017, 08:49:09 AM »
I couldn't care less how many reincarnations on 'might' have had. For the Christian, the answer is very simple. As 2 Corrie quoted; NONE. Well, that's the end of the thread on the Christian topic, then......
Are you having a pop at me?

Anchorman

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2017, 08:51:19 AM »
Are you having a pop at me?

-
Nope.
But the thread's on the Christian topic - and I've yet to see a convincing argument which links this concept with Christianity!
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2017, 08:57:22 AM »
-
Nope.
But the thread's on the Christian topic - and I've yet to see a convincing argument which links this concept with Christianity!
Agreed.

Sriram

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2017, 10:29:11 AM »



I have given the link in the OP that connects reincarnation with Christianity.   There are several connections between the two. Some Christians may not consider it as relevant because they believe in a faith based theology....which is a different matter altogether.

Robbie

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2017, 10:48:40 AM »
(Nope.)
But the thread's on the Christian topic - and I've yet to see a convincing argument which links this concept with Christianity!

quote author=Emergence-The musical link=topic=13696.msg668174#msg668174 date=1491465442]
Agreed.
[/quote]

It has opened up interesting discussion. Even if we don't believe in reincarnation ornot in the same way as a Hindu, we can find points of contact. A religious discussion forum is supposed to do that leading to greater knowledge and understanding. So far its a courteous thread with interested posters.
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Anchorman

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2017, 11:12:26 AM »


I have given the link in the OP that connects reincarnation with Christianity.   There are several connections between the two. Some Christians may not consider it as relevant because they believe in a faith based theology....which is a different matter altogether.
-
All Christians - that is all who claim Christ as Lord, believe in a faith based theology. They also accept Him as the one way to eternity.
He never mentioned reincarnation - not once.
If He never mentioned it, then it simply plays no part in any doctrine which is remotely Christian.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Robbie

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2017, 11:41:15 AM »
John 3:1-21 we are told we must be born again.
That means spiritually, becoming a new creation.
Still I think there are comparisons.
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torridon

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2017, 12:09:08 PM »
John 3:1-21 we are told we must be born again.
That means spiritually, becoming a new creation.
Still I think there are comparisons.

I don't think that is the same as reincarnation.  To be incarnated means to be enbodied.  Reincarnation is about the same person born into a new body, whereas Christian salvation is about transformation of the person within; bodies don't really come into it either in this life or in heaven.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2017, 12:23:31 PM »
I don't think that is the same as reincarnation.  To be incarnated means to be enbodied.  Reincarnation is about the same person born into a new body, whereas Christian salvation is about transformation of the person within; bodies don't really come into it either in this life or in heaven.
Not sure that's true
since there is talk in the bible of body mind and spirit, being, the body as temple, resurrection bodies.

ad_orientem

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2017, 12:24:43 PM »
The second resurrection is a resurrection of the body.
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floo

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2017, 12:26:45 PM »
The second resurrection is a resurrection of the body.

Whatever that means!

ad_orientem

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2017, 12:27:35 PM »
Whatever that means!

It means exactly what it says.
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Anchorman

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2017, 01:16:09 PM »
John 3:1-21 we are told we must be born again.
That means spiritually, becoming a new creation.
Still I think there are comparisons.

-
Sorry, Robinson;
If you take that scripture in context, it talks of spiritual rebirth - in other words, the person has already popped into the world before he/she accepts Christ for who He is and is reborn spiritually.
Reincarnation is totally didfferent.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Sriram

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2017, 01:43:05 PM »
I believe spontaneous healing can occur occasionally, but I don't think it is of supernatural origin.


Who said anything about supernatural?  I am only saying that you could have pursued it further since it was an out of the ordinary experience.

Sriram

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2017, 01:46:41 PM »
No surgeon has ever opened a body up and found a self inside.  No neuroscientist has ever discovered a master neuron in the brain, and the very idea is self-defeating, if you can excuse the awful pun. There is no ontological basis for a self, rather the feeling of selfhood is a by-product of a fully functioning working brain; all you need to do is go to sleep and the self evaporates.  When we wake up stored memories recover our sense of selfhood to where it left off, a bit like your laptop restores your apps following hibernation or sleep.

A laptop restores the apps...but to whom? To an User who uses these apps for a purpose. A laptop does not do anything for itself.

Similarly, even when we are in deep sleep, we wake up having experienced the deep sleep and the nothingness. That is the Self.

Without a Subject there can be no experience.

Sriram

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2017, 01:54:52 PM »
Hi Sriram.
Just a few observations.

Point 1. This is obviously better than the bleak and cruel atheist theory that there is no real justice. However IMO there is the kind of danger of inaction and fatalism in it. Also it is an exercise in moral accountancy which seems to rule out mercy and forgiveness.

Point 2. How many reincarnations are we supposed to have had? You seem to be suggesting a system where the human race should be growing and developing. To me that is an overoptimistic assessment of our predicament.

Point3. Where and how are moral issues being sorted out? An accusation levelled at Christianity is how can its claim that the devil was defeated at the crucifixion be true. But Christians can always turn round and talk about fulfilment at the second coming, personal transformation and the old adage ''Christianity hasn't failed it just hasn't been tried''. Karma though seems like an inexorable fixture and rule of the universe and we would expect to be able to see growth and improvement.

Point4 I do like philosophy and I do see where it is coming from although I cant support it.

Feel free to tear my points down philosophically and thanks for such a succinct and user friendly exposition.

Hi Emergence,

1. Karma means justice for all in proportion to their karma. It is a natural law...like light bodies float in water and heavy bodies sink. It is a slow process of learning and development.

2. No one can say how many incarnations one has had. It would be several even as humans. We must remember that animals are also involved in the life spectrum.  I agree there could be many questions that have no answers. But I believe that reincarnation and Karma have a better score than  a one life time-eternal punishment philosophy or a random chance theory.

3. This is about individual development and it is not necessary to see major changes in society as a whole. Even though individual children develop and move up from class to class and graduate out...the school as a whole always remains more or less the same.

Cheers.

Sriram
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 02:01:05 PM by Sriram »

Sriram

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2017, 01:59:23 PM »
John 3:1-21 we are told we must be born again.
That means spiritually, becoming a new creation.
Still I think there are comparisons.

Hi Robinson,

The idea of being Born Again and becoming a new creation is the same as eliminating the Lower Self and realizing ones Higher Self, that I have written about many times.  This process of being born again or becoming the Higher self happens very slowly through repeated reincarnations.

The process of reincarnation and Karma lead to individuals recognizing their real divine nature and eliminating their lower nature. This is Self Realization or Knowing Oneself. It cannot possibly happen in one life time.

How could Hitler for example, ever be Born Again in the same life time? It would take several reincarnations for him to develop and reach a stage where he can recognize the divinity within himself. Gandhi or Mother Teresa having developed already may do it in this one life time itself or maybe even they would have to develop further!

Cheers.

Sriram
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 02:13:07 PM by Sriram »

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2017, 02:30:26 PM »
Is reincarnation the forgotten doctrine in Christianity?

Any views?
Not in my opinion Sriram. I agree with this from earlier:

It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment.  Hebrews 9:27

The natural birth occurs only once, and the spiritual birth occurs only once.

Perhaps another biblical angle is e.g 2 Corinthians 5 v 17:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

or from Ephesians 2:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.