Author Topic: Christianity and Reincarnation  (Read 15212 times)

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2017, 02:35:08 PM »
Elijah is just a type, a figure.

ad-orientem

My interest in these matters is, of course, simply academic. However, chapter 17 of Matthew, from which one of my quotes comes, begins with the episode on the mountain of The Transfiguration, where Jesus is reported as being seen talking to 'Moses and Elijah' (and which in turn provoked the ensuing conversation with Jesus' disciples). Do you believe that in the Transfiguration, Jesus was simply talking to "two types, two figures"?
Strikes me you can make anything you like of these fantastical episodes. John the Baptist had not long been decapitated - maybe it was John as Elijah transfigured on the mountain-top as well? The whole chapter has had numerous explanations foisted on to it, in any case, and some of the traditional ones smack strongly of 'making it up as you go along'.
To return to Sriram's arguments, regarding reincarnation referred to in Christianity. There has been a lot made of supposedly consistent beliefs in Judaism and Christianity. This is certainly not the case. The 'rule' referred to by 2Corrie is death for all, then eternal bliss for some. However, we know that there were reported exceptions - Elijah certainly being one, since he didn't die, but 'was borne up to heaven in a chariot'. If he could be an exception in that instance, maybe he was an exception in the question of his 'reincarnation.'

Just playing with words guys - as most of you are. However, I know that I am.......
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 02:37:49 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2017, 02:46:02 PM »
However, we know that there were reported exceptions - Elijah certainly being one, since he didn't die, but 'was borne up to heaven in a chariot'. If he could be an exception in that instance, maybe he was an exception in the question of his 'reincarnation.'
Yes, Elijah was taken up to heaven so didn't die, but that doesn't mean he may not die in the future, so then not in breach of the verse 2Corrie cited.

For example: Elijah could be one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11...
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2017, 02:47:32 PM »
I'm posting to support everything that torridon says. How anyone can still believe in reincarnation in this day and age is really beyond belief. It's a fun idea, but that's where it should stay- in the world of make believe.

Susan

I'm very much in the disbelieving camp these days, though I gave reincarnation serious thought once. The trouble is, if, for instance, you're born with or develop a crippling disease, and are told that this is because of 'sins in a former life', this is not likely to make much sense to the suffering person if they have absolutely no memory of what 'sins' they are supposed to have committed. This makes nonsense of the whole idea - apart from those extremely dubious cases where some individuals claim to have memories of former lives (Egyptian princes and princesses seem to be high on the list of 'memories'. I'm sure Shirley Maclean thought she was Cleopatra once).
I suppose that even the Christian idea of judgment makes a bit more sense (except a lot of Christians think just having faith gets you off the hook), since you'd be made aware of what you'd done wrong, and you probably had full knowledge of this anyway, if the judgment referred to this life only.
Well, to complicate matters, some Hindus assert "Brahman is the only reincarnator" (everything is One, you see - God is mankind and mankind is also God).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 02:50:02 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2017, 03:29:58 PM »
DU

Good post, thank you. Having posted on JREF for years (it is now International Skeptics), I have read many far better posts and links to explanations of the real, investigated stories behind these apparent reincarnations. There are some which have not been investigated of course, but since enough have, then there is no need to seek anything other than a natural explanation. And that's apart from the total lack of scientific evidence or logic for reincarnation.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2017, 04:30:32 PM »
ad-orientem

My interest in these matters is, of course, simply academic. However, chapter 17 of Matthew, from which one of my quotes comes, begins with the episode on the mountain of The Transfiguration, where Jesus is reported as being seen talking to 'Moses and Elijah' (and which in turn provoked the ensuing conversation with Jesus' disciples). Do you believe that in the Transfiguration, Jesus was simply talking to "two types, two figures"?
Strikes me you can make anything you like of these fantastical episodes. John the Baptist had not long been decapitated - maybe it was John as Elijah transfigured on the mountain-top as well? The whole chapter has had numerous explanations foisted on to it, in any case, and some of the traditional ones smack strongly of 'making it up as you go along'.
To return to Sriram's arguments, regarding reincarnation referred to in Christianity. There has been a lot made of supposedly consistent beliefs in Judaism and Christianity. This is certainly not the case. The 'rule' referred to by 2Corrie is death for all, then eternal bliss for some. However, we know that there were reported exceptions - Elijah certainly being one, since he didn't die, but 'was borne up to heaven in a chariot'. If he could be an exception in that instance, maybe he was an exception in the question of his 'reincarnation.'

Just playing with words guys - as most of you are. However, I know that I am.......

Of course Jesus was talking to Elijah and Moses, but they are also figures, with regards to the Transfiguration figures of the Law and the Prophets.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2017, 05:31:20 PM »
Of course Jesus was talking to Elijah and Moses, but they are also figures, with regards to the Transfiguration figures of the Law and the Prophets.

"Of course"? Jesus on a mountaintop talking to the long dead Elijah and Moses (who may or may not have existed in any case), but when Jesus adds an explanation to the supposed incident and says that John the Baptist was the Elijah who was prophesied to come again, then Elijah gets reduced to a mere 'type'.
Righto.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2017, 05:36:29 PM »
Yes, Elijah was taken up to heaven so didn't die, but that doesn't mean he may not die in the future, so then not in breach of the verse 2Corrie cited.

For example: Elijah could be one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11...

I note your use of the subjunctive and the conditional.

It could be that, as Luther said, the Book of Revelation was neither inspirational nor apostolic. It could be that the incident on the mountain top never occurred. As for Elijah being taken up to 'heaven' in a chariot - I don't need to use a conditional there. It never happened.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2017, 05:41:58 PM »
"Of course"? Jesus on a mountaintop talking to the long dead Elijah and Moses (who may or may not have existed in any case), but when Jesus adds an explanation to the supposed incident and says that John the Baptist was the Elijah who was prophesied to come again, then Elijah gets reduced to a mere 'type'.
Righto.

There are lots of figures in the OT, yet that doesn't mean they weren't real. They do not contradict each other, except to the one dimensional mind.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2017, 05:54:33 PM »
There are lots of figures in the OT, yet that doesn't mean they weren't real. They do not contradict each other, except to the one dimensional mind.

As for who was real and who were not, we have only the historical method and the findings of archaeology to ascertain the truth with any certainty (by which means we can be fairly certain that Hezekiah existed, for instance). As for the reality of many of the others, it's pretty much a matter of faith.

Likewise, we can be pretty certain that Isaiah of Jerusalem existed, but the Book of Isaiah was written by at least three different prophets/scribes. And there are definite contradictions of belief in that book, depending on which 'Isaiah' you read. There are a number of different 'covenants' in the OT, contradicting each other. The writer of Deuteronomy refutes other writers of the Pentateuch. The person who wrote Numbers 31 obviously had a very different view of God from that of Micah etc.
The one dimensional mind is the one that seeks to impose a spurious unity over all this complexity*.

*I should add that this also applies to people who like to say "The God of the OT is a completely different God from the God of the New" or "The God of the OT is an evil monster etc etc"
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 05:58:49 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Sriram

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2017, 07:25:28 AM »
Susan

I'm very much in the disbelieving camp these days, though I gave reincarnation serious thought once. The trouble is, if, for instance, you're born with or develop a crippling disease, and are told that this is because of 'sins in a former life', this is not likely to make much sense to the suffering person if they have absolutely no memory of what 'sins' they are supposed to have committed. This makes nonsense of the whole idea - apart from those extremely dubious cases where some individuals claim to have memories of former lives (Egyptian princes and princesses seem to be high on the list of 'memories'. I'm sure Shirley Maclean thought she was Cleopatra once).
I suppose that even the Christian idea of judgment makes a bit more sense (except a lot of Christians think just having faith gets you off the hook), since you'd be made aware of what you'd done wrong, and you probably had full knowledge of this anyway, if the judgment referred to this life only.
Well, to complicate matters, some Hindus assert "Brahman is the only reincarnator" (everything is One, you see - God is mankind and mankind is also God).

Dicky,

The idea of one life time and one judgement makes a mockery of God and his justice. People are born and live under so many different circumstances, that judging them uniformly based on one life time is clearly inappropriate. How could a mentally retarded child or a disabled person for example, be judged along with others?!

Of course, the only other explanation many people seem to have for life is that of random genetic variation and Natural Selection...which is no explanation at all. It only attempts (if at all) to explain the mechanism of life and not its purpose. Like explaining the mechanisms of a car....without explaining why it exists.

Reincarnation and Karma do leave some questions open, no doubt...but they broadly do explain most aspects of life such as the inequalities in circumstances of different people, the different moral  framework and wisdom found in different people, different levels of capabilities in different people...and so on.

The fact that no one is left out of the eventual salvation indicates the fundamental uniformity of the laws. We must remember that they are natural laws and not based on the whims of any superior being. They provide a equal playing field and equal opportunities to develop for everyone.

Besides this, some people as I have indicated above, have found some evidence for reincarnation. It is usually very small children and especially those who have had sudden and violent deaths at a fairly young age...are likely to remember past lives. Adults are not meant to remember their past lives but are expected to move on to higher lessons and not hold on to the past. 

The previous life is irrelevant now to our conscious mind....and the essence of the lessons learnt in earlier lives is probably retained at the unconscious level.

Cheers.

Sriram

Sriram

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2017, 07:37:06 AM »
Hi everyone,

If reincarnation and Karma are a fact of nature/life, then they will not remain culture based for long. At least some people in other societies also would have come up with the same discovery (like most scientific discoveries) regardless of strong opposition from the majority.

People like Pythagoras and Origen besides others,...do seem to be such bold discoverers. That is why these concepts are relevant to Christianity....and to all other people world wide.

It is time we move towards a common philosophical base for all humanity, explaining all Life in general.

Cheers.

Sriram
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 07:45:03 AM by Sriram »

SusanDoris

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2017, 07:57:23 AM »
Sriramm #59

Such a plethora of bland assertions!!
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Anchorman

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2017, 09:10:59 AM »
Hi everyone,

If reincarnation and Karma are a fact of nature/life, then they will not remain culture based for long. At least some people in other societies also would have come up with the same discovery (like most scientific discoveries) regardless of strong opposition from the majority.

People like Pythagoras and Origen besides others,...do seem to be such bold discoverers. That is why these concepts are relevant to Christianity....and to all other people world wide.

It is time we move towards a common philosophical base for all humanity, explaining all Life in general.

Cheers.

Sriram

-
Sorry, why is it time we moved toward anything?
To ask a Christian to abandon the commands and teaching of the Lord to whom he/she has committed themselves is simply not on.
There is no doctrine of reincarnation in the Gospel, and there never was.
There is no room for compromise.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2017, 09:30:57 AM »
As for who was real and who were not, we have only the historical method and the findings of archaeology to ascertain the truth with any certainty (by which means we can be fairly certain that Hezekiah existed, for instance). As for the reality of many of the others, it's pretty much a matter of faith.

Dicky....I have a horrible feeling you are working from the basis that if the method cannot find something there is a shortcoming in History rather than a shortcoming in the method and it's ability to find the history.

Rather like the materialist scientism view of existence which states that if it does not fit in with the methodology then it cannot exist. Whereas the ''cannot exist'' bit is really the faith part.

Am I right.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2017, 09:37:22 AM »
Hi everyone,

If reincarnation and Karma are a fact of nature/life, then they will not remain culture based for long. At least some people in other societies also would have come up with the same discovery (like most scientific discoveries) regardless of strong opposition from the majority.

People like Pythagoras and Origen besides others,...do seem to be such bold discoverers. That is why these concepts are relevant to Christianity....and to all other people world wide.

It is time we move towards a common philosophical base for all humanity, explaining all Life in general.

Cheers.

Sriram
I feel you are mistaking Christianity for a form of Hinduism here.

torridon

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2017, 10:15:35 AM »

If reincarnation and Karma are a fact of nature/life, then ....

Unfortunately they aren't .....

It is time we move towards a common philosophical base for all humanity, explaining all Life in general.

Noble aim perhaps.  But to entertain beliefs like karma and reincarnation requires one to ignore pretty much the entire body of knowledge we have built up about life over the last few hundred years.  That is not a sound footing for a common philosophical base, more an escape from reality into the realms of fantasy.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2017, 10:56:38 AM »
Unfortunately they aren't .....

Noble aim perhaps.  But to entertain beliefs like karma and reincarnation requires one to ignore pretty much the entire body of knowledge we have built up about life over the last few hundred years.  That is not a sound footing for a common philosophical base, more an escape from reality into the realms of fantasy.
Completely disagree. The belief that death is the end can be easily reached by any person anywhere and indeed has history and past form rather than the triumphant result of years of scientific research etc. built up recently since enlightenment times.

torridon

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2017, 11:35:20 AM »
Completely disagree. The belief that death is the end can be easily reached by any person anywhere and indeed has history and past form rather than the triumphant result of years of scientific research etc. built up recently since enlightenment times.

Doesn't make sense. Maybe finger trouble.  But whatever you meant to say, I'm sure that the overwhelming evidence from life sciences points out that death of an individual occurs when he/she stops living but life as a process goes on thanks to mechanisms of replication. Replicated individuals bear characteristics of their parents and we have no evidence to suggest newly born individuals being invaded by some previously deceased individual.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2017, 11:48:37 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Rather like the materialist scientism view of existence which states that if it does not fit in with the methodology then it cannot exist. Whereas the ''cannot exist'' bit is really the faith part.

Am I right.

No, you're lying. No-one says, "it cannot exist". What they actually say is that there's no cogent reason to think it does exist - a very different matter.

You try this particular lie all over the place. Why?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2017, 12:21:29 PM »
Vlad,

No, you're lying. No-one says, "it cannot exist". What they actually say is that there's no cogent reason to think it does exist - a very different matter.

You try this particular lie all over the place. Why?
I'm sorry but you obviously don't understand the meaning of either ''Materialist'' or ''scientism''. I do not say He is doing it i'm asking if he might be.

Sriram

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2017, 01:10:13 PM »
Unfortunately they aren't .....

Noble aim perhaps.  But to entertain beliefs like karma and reincarnation requires one to ignore pretty much the entire body of knowledge we have built up about life over the last few hundred years.  That is not a sound footing for a common philosophical base, more an escape from reality into the realms of fantasy.

torridon,

When I asked you how our scientific findings conflict with the idea of reincarnation and Karma, you said something like....'no doctor during surgery has ever found the Self...and when we sleep we lose consciousness' ....or something like that.

If that is your argument....silence is best!!! :) ;)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2017, 01:19:13 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I'm sorry but you obviously don't understand the meaning of either ''Materialist'' or ''scientism''. I do not say He is doing it i'm asking if he might be.

No, you don't - neither materialism nor scientism say that other phenomena "cannot" exist. This is the big lie you cling to as a man clings to a concrete lifebelt. What they actually do is treat the material as a working assumption because claims of the non-material offer no means of investigation.
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Sriram

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2017, 01:44:58 PM »
-
Sorry, why is it time we moved toward anything?
To ask a Christian to abandon the commands and teaching of the Lord to whom he/she has committed themselves is simply not on.
There is no doctrine of reincarnation in the Gospel, and there never was.
There is no room for compromise.

Anchorman,

I am not asking Christians to give up their faith in Christ or abandon his teachings.  I am only saying that there is no final word on what exactly Jesus taught. The bible was compiled 300 years later with the vested interest of many others at that point of time.

On the other hand, some Jews and early Christians and also certain gospels such as The Gospel of Thomas besides certain words in  the official bible itself, seem to indicate a belief in reincarnation (refer link in the OP).

That idea is also more universal in its application than standard biblical ideas and has a stronger philosophical base not just in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism etc. but in Kabbala, gnosticism and Sufi teachings as well.

So...maybe Christianity does have its secret teachings that go beyond standard faith based beliefs. I don't think the possibility can be dismissed outright, rather it needs to be investigated and studied more carefully. 

My point is to arrive at a common philosophical base for all people and to keep cultural and traditional influences to the minimum.

Cheers.

Sriram
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 01:48:27 PM by Sriram »

torridon

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2017, 03:02:06 PM »
torridon,

When I asked you how our scientific findings conflict with the idea of reincarnation and Karma, you said something like....'no doctor during surgery has ever found the Self...and when we sleep we lose consciousness' ....or something like that.

If that is your argument....silence is best!!! :) ;)

Ah, keep any level headed reality away from the party.  Don't want no inconvenient things like facts getting in the way, I see .....

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christianity and Reincarnation
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2017, 05:41:49 PM »
Vlad,

No, you don't - neither materialism nor scientism say that other phenomena "cannot" exist. This is the big lie you cling to as a man clings to a concrete lifebelt. What they actually do is treat the material as a working assumption because claims of the non-material offer no means of investigation.
Yes you said a working assumption that material is all there is. It's the ''all there is'' bit that you are trying to turdpolish into having no philosophical entailment...but it does...and you've been caught out.

There is no mileage on shooting the messenger here or running after him onto every thread metaphorically shouting. That is not a good look IMHO.

I think were at the point where the behaviour of antitheists is anticordial and hilariously domineering. So guys I think I got better things to do.