Spirituality and Religion

[Nearly Sane]

I know your thread has moved on from the title sriam but someone asked me what i meant by 'spirituality' a few weeks ago and when i came back I couldn't find the thread or remember who asked it.
Another word is 'otherwordly' and I subscribe to that. Don't expect anyone else to believe in it but it is true for me.

it's not about being believed, it's about whether it's meaningful. What does 'otherwordly' mean to you, nevermind someone else?

[Rhiannon]

I've given my definition before, but spirituality for me is the pursuit of things that feed my 'spirit' - the meaning that I bring to the party I guess. It's drinking hot chocolate in front of a fire and looking at the stars and feeling wet earth and sloppy kisses from kids and dogs. It's art galleries and bookshops, beaches and my duvet when it's just been cleaned. In other words, being present.

[ekim]

In my view 'spirit' is a symbolic word that comes from Latin spiritus which means breath, breeze or air, a symbol of life. 
If you try to look at the nature of air through the eyes of people of the distant past I would suggest it would have these qualities - it is invisible but you can see its effect when it animates something,  it is intangible but you can feel it when it moves towards you,  if you try to grasp it you lose it,  its source is unknown and yet it seems to be ever present,  if you don't get it into you, you die. 'Spirituality' could then be seen as an inner quest to discover the essence of life and remain ever conscious (of it).  To some mystics, words like 'quest', 'seek and you shall find' and 'philosophy' will agitate the reasoning rationalising mind and so they suggest methods to promote inner stillness (which is not the same as inner suppression).

[Bramble]

Nicely put, ekim. One might add that whilst the breath is invisible to us, except on a very cold day, it is actually entirely physical/material (reminding us that things that appear subtle and intangible do not necessarily imply otherworldliness) and is a point of vital contact and interchange with our environment. When this relationship with the outside world stops we die. So although spirituality is often linked to 'seeking' it might more fundamentally be a word that refers to our essential relationship and connection with all that is without, and thus about the experience of being a self in a world of other and all the issues and implications that arise from this. Perhaps the most significant issue that arises is that of the experience of lack, which leads to searching for whatever it might be that appears to be missing. Because people are generally confused about what is missing they seek for different things in different ways, resulting in a wide variety of spiritual practices and beliefs, which is why the word spiritual can be so slippery and imprecise. And, of course, those who do not think of themselves as spiritual will equally be engaged in this process, even if their seeking is restricted to retail therapy or new and entertaining experiences. That's why I think we need to be careful of defining spirituality too narrowly and I'd suggest that it makes no more sense to think of only certain people as spiritual than it would to think of only certain people as having bodies. Spiritual life (whether we acknowledge it or not) is as innate to us as mental life or physical embodiment and the three are merely aspects of one thing.

[Sriram]

Bramble,

Your point that spirit and body are connected...therefore anyone with a body would also be spiritual....is valid only partly.

All animals have bodies...how are they spiritual?   Hitler had a body...how is he spiritual?

I agree that merely existing in a body itself automatically takes us forward spiritually because of the living experiences that we have. But this kind of automatic progression is like nursery/primary school children who progress almost automatically to higher classes without consciously relating to their progression. At lower levels it works.

But it doesn't work at higher levels.

At high school level one needs to be consciously aware and also consciously work towards ones progression, otherwise we will not progress. Similarly human spiritual progress for most people, will not happen without conscious intent and effort. That is why conscious awareness and intellectual capabilities develop during this stage.   

[Rhiannon]

Nicely put, ekim. One might add that whilst the breath is invisible to us, except on a very cold day, it is actually entirely physical/material (reminding us that things that appear subtle and intangible do not necessarily imply otherworldliness) and is a point of vital contact and interchange with our environment. When this relationship with the outside world stops we die. So although spirituality is often linked to 'seeking' it might more fundamentally be a word that refers to our essential relationship and connection with all that is without, and thus about the experience of being a self in a world of other and all the issues and implications that arise from this. Perhaps the most significant issue that arises is that of the experience of lack, which leads to searching for whatever it might be that appears to be missing. Because people are generally confused about what is missing they seek for different things in different ways, resulting in a wide variety of spiritual practices and beliefs, which is why the word spiritual can be so slippery and imprecise. And, of course, those who do not think of themselves as spiritual will equally be engaged in this process, even if their seeking is restricted to retail therapy or new and entertaining experiences. That's why I think we need to be careful of defining spirituality too narrowly and I'd suggest that it makes no more sense to think of only certain people as spiritual than it would to think of only certain people as having bodies. Spiritual life (whether we acknowledge it or not) is as innate to us as mental life or physical embodiment and the three are merely aspects of one thing.

Nice post.

I think we are diverse creatures so the pursuit of whatever it is that is missing is going to take in an almost infinite range of expression. And my personal take is that the meaning we seek is within ourselves and not something external, and it is about relationship. I guess I'm with the existentialists in that life has no meaning except that which we bring to the party, and so when I'm looking at art, or listening to music, or gazing at a sunset, or holding my kids, the thing that I am seeking is my relationship to those things, how I connect with them, what meaning I give them.

[wigginhall]

Nicely put, ekim. One might add that whilst the breath is invisible to us, except on a very cold day, it is actually entirely physical/material (reminding us that things that appear subtle and intangible do not necessarily imply otherworldliness) and is a point of vital contact and interchange with our environment. When this relationship with the outside world stops we die. So although spirituality is often linked to 'seeking' it might more fundamentally be a word that refers to our essential relationship and connection with all that is without, and thus about the experience of being a self in a world of other and all the issues and implications that arise from this. Perhaps the most significant issue that arises is that of the experience of lack, which leads to searching for whatever it might be that appears to be missing. Because people are generally confused about what is missing they seek for different things in different ways, resulting in a wide variety of spiritual practices and beliefs, which is why the word spiritual can be so slippery and imprecise. And, of course, those who do not think of themselves as spiritual will equally be engaged in this process, even if their seeking is restricted to retail therapy or new and entertaining experiences. That's why I think we need to be careful of defining spirituality too narrowly and I'd suggest that it makes no more sense to think of only certain people as spiritual than it would to think of only certain people as having bodies. Spiritual life (whether we acknowledge it or not) is as innate to us as mental life or physical embodiment and the three are merely aspects of one thing.

Good post.  You've reminded me of the writings of Jacques Lacan, the French psychoanalyst.   Amongst various incomprehensible stuff, he did say many times that humans are actually constituted by lack, or identified with it, or haunted by it.  Of course, normally we try to fill it with stuff, but there is an interesting experience in meditation or contemplation, whereby one becomes the lack.   People often talk about it as the desert experience, or just barrenness, emptiness.   But as I said, it's interesting to stay in it, and not try to cure it.   Of course, the emptiness tends to fill anyway, quite naturally.   Zen talks about nothing and everything being two sides of the same coin.  Well, so do most religions, cf. the theme of the desert in Christianity.   But Western people seem to have a huge need/greed to fill the lack, don't know why, except that it's uncomfortable to be lacking.

[Bramble]

Nice post.

I think we are diverse creatures so the pursuit of whatever it is that is missing is going to take in an almost infinite range of expression. And my personal take is that the meaning we seek is within ourselves and not something external, and it is about relationship. I guess I'm with the existentialists in that life has no meaning except that which we bring to the party, and so when I'm looking at art, or listening to music, or gazing at a sunset, or holding my kids, the thing that I am seeking is my relationship to those things, how I connect with them, what meaning I give them.

Yes, and sometimes we notice that nothing is actually missing and then, as T S Eliot put it, we return home and find we know the place for the first time.

[Bramble]

Good post.  You've reminded me of the writings of Jacques Lacan, the French psychoanalyst.   Amongst various incomprehensible stuff, he did say many times that humans are actually constituted by lack, or identified with it, or haunted by it.  Of course, normally we try to fill it with stuff, but there is an interesting experience in meditation or contemplation, whereby one becomes the lack.   People often talk about it as the desert experience, or just barrenness, emptiness.   But as I said, it's interesting to stay in it, and not try to cure it.   Of course, the emptiness tends to fill anyway, quite naturally.   Zen talks about nothing and everything being two sides of the same coin.  Well, so do most religions, cf. the theme of the desert in Christianity.   But Western people seem to have a huge need/greed to fill the lack, don't know why, except that it's uncomfortable to be lacking.

Hence the human preoccupation with identity, I suppose. I sometimes think we're a bit like those curious caddis fly larvae that cover themselves in small twigs and stones, except that in our case there's nothing inside the debris of attachments we make our home.

[wigginhall]

Hence the human preoccupation with identity, I suppose. I sometimes think we're a bit like those curious caddis fly larvae that cover themselves in small twigs and stones, except that in our case there's nothing inside the debris of attachments we make our home.

That's a nice image.   Into the heart of darkness!   The old cry in Zen is 'I am nothing and everything'.   

[Rhiannon]

'I am not the stars in the sky, I am the space between the stars.'

I think there is something in the west about our need to tell stories about ourselves and each other. We like labels and tribes and figuring out where we fit and where we don't. And all we do is flag up differences and feel we don't fit where we should or don't like those who don't fit. And all because of a load of stories that were never true to begin with.

[wigginhall]

'I am not the stars in the sky, I am the space between the stars.'

I think there is something in the west about our need to tell stories about ourselves and each other. We like labels and tribes and figuring out where we fit and where we don't. And all we do is flag up differences and feel we don't fit where we should or don't like those who don't fit. And all because of a load of stories that were never true to begin with.

I used to be obsessed with the space between things, words, stories, ideas.   When I started doing Zen, I found it ideal, as there is plenty of nothingness going on!  But now I'm too old and tired to do stuff like that, but I can still rustle up a whole pile of emptiness at times!   Well, it can feel really bad, of course, but that's not space. 

[Sriram]

'I am not the stars in the sky, I am the space between the stars.'

I think there is something in the west about our need to tell stories about ourselves and each other. We like labels and tribes and figuring out where we fit and where we don't. And all we do is flag up differences and feel we don't fit where we should or don't like those who don't fit. And all because of a load of stories that were never true to begin with.

That could be at least partly because of the Zoom-In and Zoom -Out mind that I have talked about earlier. Westerners tend to have a Zoom-In mind ...that separates, dissects, labels and differentiates.  This is good for Science...because that's what science does.   This type of mind has lots of boxes and hedges in the mind with very fixed channels.

For philosophy, spirituality and mysticism on the other hand....we need a Zoom-Out mind that integrates, puts together and looks at the whole instead of the parts. This kind of mind has very few hedges. Everything is like a open field....and you can run anywhere to anywhere. 

[ekim]

'I am not the stars in the sky, I am the space between the stars.'

Reminds me of a verse from the Tao Te Ching:
Many spokes are needed to create a wheel
But it is the space at the centre that makes it functional.
Create a pot from clay,
But it is the space within that makes it useable.
A house may have many windows and doors,
But it is the open space that allows them to be used.
Therefore, although we favour what is in Existence
We need to see the spacious value of inner Being.

[Sriram]

I think some people get quite impressed with the 'emptiness', 'nothingness' ideas because it is intriguing and adds to the mystery.

Actually emptiness only means that our mind is unable to interact with what ever is there. It is like empty space in outer space....there is no such thing. 'Nothingness' doesn't exist. It is vibrant and full of potential.

[SweetPea]

........ 'Nothingness' doesn't exist. It is vibrant and full of potential.

Sriram.... and that is it in one.. The Kingdom of Heaven is within.. alive within us all..

[Sriram]

Sriram.... and that is it in one.. The Kingdom of Heaven is within.. alive within us all..

I agree SweetPea. Realizing that is enough, IMO!

[Robbie]

it's not about being believed, it's about whether it's meaningful. What does 'otherwordly' mean to you, nevermind someone else?

  Feeling dreamy & being vague!