Author Topic: USA Doctor accused of FGM  (Read 2715 times)

Robbie

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2017, 03:57:10 PM »
Just putting the other side jp. It's not something I'd want for any kid of mine without medical reason, already said that.
It would be helfpul if we had a couple of Jews or Muslims on here, better than me saying what I think they'd say.
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trippymonkey

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2017, 03:58:52 PM »
Nick, you asked what 'primitive religions' require circumcision.Jews are the ones we think of first of all but Muslims do it too on older boys, both Abrahamic religions whcih you might think of as primitive, I don't know.  Most African men are circumcised regardless of religion.

I said retarded not primitive & it has a whole different meaning & I really meant it. I have NO, ZERO, tolerance for physical mutilations of most kinds, tattoos an exemption.

God 'needs' - wants you to cut yourself in parts ?!?!!?!? OH YEAH ????
Would this have been some semi-underground sign for Jews to 'recognise' each other?

Robbie

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2017, 04:07:57 PM »
Very sorry about saying primitive instead of retarded Nick. I read the word 'primitive' in another post and it stuck in my brain cell. It was about Rabbi Tendler saying the - weird (perverted imo)certain practice by some rabbis after circumciion - highlighted by NearlySane (& later by jeremy), being 'primitive nonsense'. Gave me the creeps.
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splashscuba

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2017, 08:57:02 PM »
I said retarded not primitive & it has a whole different meaning & I really meant it. I have NO, ZERO, tolerance for physical mutilations of most kinds, tattoos an exemption.

God 'needs' - wants you to cut yourself in parts ?!?!!?!? OH YEAH ????
Would this have been some semi-underground sign for Jews to 'recognise' each other?
I have a different view. Consenting adults should be able to do what they want. People do all sorts of destructive things to themselves. Who am I to judge.
I have an infinite number of belief systems cos there are an infinite number of things I don't believe in.

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Robbie

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2017, 09:06:01 PM »
This thread isn't about adults though, Splashcuba. It is about children, girls undergoing FGM and went on to infant males being circumcised. Neither appear to have any choice in the matter.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2017, 09:17:21 PM »

God 'needs' - wants you to cut yourself in parts ?!?!!?!? OH YEAH ????
Would this have been some semi-underground sign for Jews to 'recognise' each other?

Circumcision is a surprisingly widespread ... err ... custom. It was probably endemic in the areas in which the Jewish religion developed. it may well have assimilated into its practices. The covenant between Abraham and God was probably a kind of post-hoc rationalisation
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2017, 09:33:19 PM »
This thread isn't about adults though, Splashcuba. It is about children, girls undergoing FGM and went on to infant males being circumcised. Neither appear to have any choice in the matter.
I certainly had no choice in the matter. I was only a few days old at the time.

Despite my best intentions my own son was circumcised. In retrospect, the circumstances were disturbing.

When he was about six years old he had a routine examination by the school doctor. She determined that his prepuce was adhering to the glans and she determined that he should be circumcised. We were told to see our GP. The GP, a woman, arranged an appointment at the hospital, my son was circumcised, under general anaesthetic, by a surgeon and was allowed to return home in the evening.

In retrospect two things caused me concern. One was that the GP did not assess my son, nor did she ask us whether we wanted to go ahead with the operation, nor did she give us any information about the need for surgery or of any alternative treatments. I later learned that adhesions may be disappear around puberty.

The other cause for concern was that several other boys at my son's school were similarly diagnosed by the same woman. In retrospect it seems that she may have had some kind of agenda. Perhaps she was related to John Harvey Kellogg!

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Robbie

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2017, 10:35:11 PM »
Surely you had to sign a consent form Harrowby?

It does sound disturbing but circumcision often gets rid of problems for good, my cousin's boy had one aged about six and he was OK afterwards. Plus I know a couple, well the man, had it done after he was married because he had some difficulties, didn't ask what. He was fine, had kids.

If it is for sound medical reasons there's no problem but the controversy is over babies having the procedure for religious reasons.

There are no religious reasons for FGM, it's cultural & the girls don't just have a little bit cut off but a whole lot, then stitched up tightly back to front with a little hole in the middle. Horrible to even think of.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2017, 10:51:22 PM »
Surely you had to sign a consent form Harrowby?

It does sound disturbing but circumcision often gets rid of problems for good, my cousin's boy had one aged about six and he was OK afterwards. Plus I know a couple, well the man, had it done after he was married because he had some difficulties, didn't ask what. He was fine, had kids.

If it is for sound medical reasons there's no problem but the controversy is over babies having the procedure for religious reasons.

There are no religious reasons for FGM, it's cultural & the girls don't just have a little bit cut off but a whole lot, then stitched up tightly back to front with a little hole in the middle. Horrible to even think of.
what's the difference between religion and cultural here?

Robbie

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2017, 11:42:44 PM »
Do you mean for FGM? FGM is an ancient practice, In a documentary I heard one elderly West African lady say the practice was "As old as Africa"; it was made illegal in Nigeria in the 1950s but still happens in remote places, usually performed by grandmothers. It is done regardless of religion,whether they're Christian, Muslim or adhere to one of the older religions.

It happens in predominantly Muslim countries such as Ethiopia and even Egypt but has nothing to do with the Qu'ran.
The Somali government issued a fatwa against the practice not that long ago (but still happens).

The Saudis are trying to stop it, it's not common practice but it happens in Southern regions bordering on Yemen.
https://stopfgmmiddleeast.wordpress.com/countries/saudi-arabia/


Although it is forbidden by Jewish law FGM customary in Ethiopia amongst the Beta Israel.

Some Christian communities from Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania consider FGM to be a religious requirement;they're wrong but it's a custom firmly ingrained in their culture.

There's no religion that insists on female genital mutilation, indeed some are firmly against it. Nevertheless it happens and has happened for generations amongst people from various parts of the world.

(We don't have to touch on  FGM performed in the USA and here, probably other places, on women like ourselves who were judged to be morally lax or in moral danger, that's a different story.)

A very good book to read is Alice Walker's novel, 'Possessing the Secret of Joy'. It's well researched and informative on the subject of female circumcision.

Male circumcision is a religious practice for Jews and Muslims but happens for other, non-medical, reasons too.

 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 11:58:48 PM by Robinson »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2017, 11:52:11 PM »
I mean why do you think we should treat cultural vs religious practices differently?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 11:54:49 PM by Nearly Sane »

Robbie

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2017, 11:56:27 PM »
I don't say we should treat them differently but there is a difference in meaning between culture and religion even though the lines are often blurred.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2017, 12:04:59 AM »
I don't say we should treat them differently but there is a difference in meaning between culture and religion even though the lines are often blurred.
Sowhat is the difference? And what, if any,relevance does the difference have to the discussion?

Robbie

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2017, 12:29:51 AM »
Don't you know the difference? You can google and find it but I'm sure you do know.
As for relevance to the discussion I wanted to show that the practice is ancient and widespread, bigger if you like than any religion.

If you don't find it relevant just ignore. I'm off to bed.
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Sassy

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2017, 02:45:07 AM »
I mean why do you think we should treat cultural vs religious practices differently?

Do you really require an answer to that one?

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Nearly Sane

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2017, 09:06:36 AM »
Don't you know the difference? You can google and find it but I'm sure you do know.
As for relevance to the discussion I wanted to show that the practice is ancient and widespread, bigger if you like than any religion.

If you don't find it relevant just ignore. I'm off to bed.

Effectively they are both just sets of beliefs about how you should behave here, so no, I don't see what the difference is. But the reason I am confused by your approach is that ypu stated in Reply 13

'However I won't interfere with religious beliefs of others, respects Jews & Muslims and haven't heard of Jewish boys dying after circumcisiion.'


This does not seem to be your approach as regards what you see as cultural beliefs, so you seem at that point to be arguing for what are religious beliefs to be treated differently.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2017, 09:19:10 AM »
Surely you had to sign a consent form Harrowby?

It was thirty years ago. This is a detail I do not remember.

And anyway, this was before that revolutionary change that occurred in the relationship between general practitioner and patient that was precipitated by the arrest and trial of Harold Shipman.
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Robbie

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2017, 11:31:19 AM »
Oh yes, people didn't question doctors years ago. I remember my mum agreeing with the GP regardless of how we might feel. Not like that in my time & doctors are glad of that too, so much responsibility was on them back in the day. I hope your son was OK after the op, presume he is hale and hearty.

Going back to FGM, there are organisations we can support which fight it. It doesn't sound like much but is at least something we can do and the more voices raised, the more are heard. It all starts with women who have to be educated to think differently. Those who do have the loudest voices & are listened to.

Don't think I can say more on this subject. (I dreamed about it last night! That happens when I can't stop thinking about something & today I will avoid it.)
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splashscuba

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2017, 03:55:10 PM »
This thread isn't about adults though, Splashcuba. It is about children, girls undergoing FGM and went on to infant males being circumcised. Neither appear to have any choice in the matter.
Yes I know.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2017, 08:02:22 AM »

Male circumcision is a religious practice for Jews and Muslims but happens for other, non-medical, reasons too.


Other reasons ....

https://www.babble.com/mom/3-strange-uses-for-infant-foreskins/
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JP

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2017, 08:23:21 AM »
A female doctor in the USA has carried out many such operations (sic) over many years.

Of course she may as she claims be "not guilty" but it is good to see that one government somewhere seems to be trying to get a grip on this hideous practice.

Cannot understand why there have never been any prosecutions here in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39597062

It does make you wonder why nobody has been prosecuted here. The NSPCC estimate there are over 130,000 victims in the UK yet not a single one. Makes you wonder what the feminists believe is worth campaigning for.
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floo

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2017, 08:29:02 AM »
Mutilation for the sake of religion or culture should be a crime, which is taken very seriously.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2017, 08:47:21 AM »
It does make you wonder why nobody has been prosecuted here. The NSPCC estimate there are over 130,000 victims in the UK yet not a single one. Makes you wonder what the feminists believe is worth campaigning for.

But that makes it an issue worth campaigning for, surely. There is a kind of cultural cowardice on the part of police forces - West Midlands force says that education is better than prosecution. Woolly-minded "liberal" social workers do not want to upset minority communities.

Parents need to know that they do not own their children. Girls being taken out of the country for ritual mutilation should be considered to be a criminal offence. Perhaps there should be a duty for medical practitioners, nurses, health care and social workers to report all instances of suspected mutilation AND a duty for police and other authorities to investigate each reported incident.

The apparent lack of activity with respect to actual female genital mutilation contrasts sharply with the flurry of activity seen when a report is made about historic sexual abuse - especially when the alleged perpetrator is long dead!
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: USA Doctor accused of FGM
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2017, 02:44:16 PM »
Item from the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-39630199

 FGM victims discovered - on average - every three days by midwives and clinicians in Wales.
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