Be a vegetarian this Easter!

[Dicky Underpants]

Why wouldn't it? That's strictly correct. It's not his definition, her definition, my definition or your definition: it's the definition. It's what the word means.

Shaker
Yes, I do know the difference between vegetarian and vegan, and have known it for at least the last 50 years. My response was really a gentle prod at Sriram, just to see what his take on the matter was. I was again specifically Sriram I directed my rather flippant final comments to, since he being a 'pantheist' Hindu is likely to endow plants and fungi with rather more 'sensibility' than you or many of the spiritually sceptic camp are likely to. He may for all I know believe that even rocks have consciousness, but no doubt he'll inform us on that.
My only serious comment was the one concerning the production of milk - and it is a very serious one, for anyone with grand hopes for humanity adopting a principally vegetarian diet. The fact remains that if people want milk (from whichever mammal), there is going to be a huge surplus of male offspring which will have to be slaughtered, unless the pastures of the world are to be munched away in a very short time. There is also the possibility of genetic engineering for more female offspring, but that's a can of worms (incidentally, I think that unusual sources of animal protein should definitely be explored, including locusts, which can otherwise bring about great areas of famine in hours).
The proposition that much of the world be given over to the growth of legumes - such as soya bean - to replace animal farming has largely resulted in giving an opening to shameless and morally bankrupt opportunists going to make a quick buck - as in Argentina. It also tends to favour the development of huge monocultures, which have often had disastrous agricultural results.

Is "Butbutbutbut what about the plants feeling pain?" a dickheadish non-question typically posed by people more interested in point-scoring than anything substantive such as non-human pain, environmental degradation and so forth? Hell yes.

Yes, it is a dickheadish question, as I've pointed out above, but the second aspect of your comment is so riddled with complexities, that I don't see any point in trying to reduce the argument to a binary 'vegetarian versus omnivorous' option for human sustenance. As I've said, the environmental degradation matter is well underway in some areas as direct consequence of going for the vegetarian option.

[Dicky Underpants]

Was thinking about what you said Dicky but Shaker has more or less said it for me.

Vegetarians go as far as they feel they can to minimise animal suffering, hence eating and drinking dairy products.

In this country there has been a revolution in animal farming in recent years. Calves stay with their mothers for longer and have a better life whereas in the past they were taken almost immediately after birth which was distressing for both mother and calf. Of course eventually they will either grow up into beef cattle or will be killed and sold as veal (veal is something I have never touched) - nothing is perfect.

We don't live in a vegetarian world Dicky so we have to make the best of it but organic milk comes from cows who are not intensively farmed.

Robinson

I've covered some of these matters a bit more seriously in my post to Shaker. I think you've hit the nail on the head with suggesting a pragmatic ideal, which is usually designated as 'compassion in world farming'. That should not be beyond the possibility of human endeavour, and less likely to foment the energies of the 'food fascists' who attempt to foist their dietary habits on the rest of us (I think there can be a slippery slope here, though: one moment it's 'let's all go organic', the next it's scientists involved in medical drug research being bombed to bits by 'animal rights defenders')
I'm a bit of an old sceptic about a lot of these earnest endeavours these days, though. It probably stems from the days when I worked in the offices of British Organic Farmers and the Soil Association (I started as a true believer). I did notice the glint of the fanatic in the eyes of some of these worthy farmers, and in their conversations they adopted a purist approach which I felt was simply ignoring aspects of genuine scientific research in agriculture, in the areas of chemical weed control etc. (Whilst happily espousing all modern developments in machinery and information technology, they seemed to wed all this to a rosy 'golden age' view of the world and nature. All a bit double-think)
I suppose my ultimate scepticism came when I was asked to translate the handbook of organic standards of the Spanish 'Vida Sana' organisation (that's the Spanish equivalent of British Organic Farmers). I couldn't help thinking how much these standards were more the result of a psychological predisposition rather than any real agricultural science, for the Spanish standards were entirely directed towards a vegetarian lifestyle! I imagine those worthy farmers were trying to expunge their share of the national guilt after centuries of tormenting and killing bulls*. Bullfighting is something that I utterly detest, but you'll never expunge it from the Spanish psyche - I once met a Spanish Zen Buddhist (Buddhism of course promoting largely vegetarian habits) who was a bullfighting fanatic. Talk about double-think!
I suppose one point I'm making is that so many of people's ideas on these things are determined not so much by genuine empathy for animals, but by psychological propensities which have nothing to do with the expressed concerns. In may be just a matter of sentimentality, or a dislike of eating meat because one doesn't like the taste. I even think this of the vegetarian habits of my closest friend, who is definitely greatly influenced in his attitude to animals by a degree of sentimentality, and not much objectivity. I think he even feels sentimental about grey squirrels, bloody vermin that they are. I'd eat the buggers, if someone would show me how to prepare them, or better still cook me up a stew ready-prepared!

*They do indeed eat the bulls (and the balls thereof) after each 'successful' matanza.

[Rhiannon]

Milk production is a difficult one, there's no doubt - it's the reason I have had to shelve my idea of ever having goats on a smallholding and making my own cheese. I try to do my best by buying dairy that has been produced organically, or free range. But I still wear leather when I can't find an alternative. I can't lecture anyone on their standards. I don't get the fashion for soya mince when lentils do the job better and I think it a good thing when people buy humanely farmed meat - or fish for their own dinner. But I cannot abide the thought of eating dead flesh. How it is.

Incidentally I don't get how organic farming can be vegan given the importance of returning animal matter to the soil.

[Sriram]

Obviously the whole world is never going to be 100% vegetarian at any time.  If we manage 50% it will be good but I'll go with about 25% as most likely.

[Shaker]

Obviously the whole world is never going to be 100% vegetarian at any time.  If we manage 50% it will be good but I'll go with about 25% as most likely.

Not going to happen.

The world population keeps growing out of control. Most people are raised to eat meat - I know I was - so, given that, even if you can persuade more people to go vegetarian, their numbers will just be swallowed up by more people over all still eating flesh.

[Shaker]

I even think this of the vegetarian habits of my closest friend, who is definitely greatly influenced in his attitude to animals by a degree of sentimentality, and not much objectivity. I think he even feels sentimental about grey squirrels, bloody vermin that they are. I'd eat the buggers, if someone would show me how to prepare them, or better still cook me up a stew ready-prepared!

"Whenever people say 'we mustn't be sentimental', you can take it they are about to do something cruel. And if they add, 'we must be realistic', they mean they are going to make money out of it." - Brigid Brophy

[Rhiannon]

"Whenever people say 'we mustn't be sentimental', you can take it they are about to do something cruel. And if they add, 'we must be realistic', they mean they are going to make money out of it." - Brigid Brophy

Not sure how much money there is to be made from squirrel stew. Even if it's on the menu at River Cottage.

[Shaker]

Not sure how much money there is to be made from squirrel stew. Even if it's on the menu at River Cottage.

Wrong chef - Heston Blumenhell would stick a £65.99 tab on it though knowing him.

[Rhiannon]

It would seem we are both wrong.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/9877019/Hugh-Fearnley-Whittingstall-serves-up-squirrel-in-Devon.html

[Shaker]

 

[Sebastian Toe]

It would seem we are both wrong.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/9877019/Hugh-Fearnley-Whittingstall-serves-up-squirrel-in-Devon.html

That's just nuts!

[Rhiannon]

Moo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40253429

[Shaker]

Moo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40253429

I support one in Warwickshire. Hoping to visit some time over summer.

His brother-in-law told him he was "absolutely insane" to give away cattle which could fetch up to £40,000 at market.

It's just the almighty pound with some people, isn't it? 

[Rhiannon]

Yes, but if they were dairy farmers they were lucky if they broke even. With the imminent loss of EU subsidies you could argue there's more money to be made from the vegan market garden than dairy. And probably for a lot less work, if the arable farmers I know are anything to go by.

[Robbie]

Went to my in-laws for lunch today, their grandson (my nephew) & his wife were staying, we're always pleased to see them.  He went to a wedding near to us yesterday and is staying with his grandparents until Monday morning.   We got there about 11.45 and lunch was 12.45.   My in-laws cooked roast lamb and.roast beef!   I must say it smelled beautiful but I had cauliflower and purple sprouting brocllii in cheese sauce (I refuse to call it 'au gratin'), honey roast baby carrots, minted new, roast and cheesy mashed potatoes and Yorkshire puddings.  They even cooked non-meat gravy for me!   For pudding was fresh strawberries or apple and blackberry crumble.  I was well impressed & full up.

We left just before 3, my two daughters arrived to eat leftovers and commune with their cousin.   I expect they'll turn up here later.

[Sriram]

Good to know that you stick by your principles even under very tempting circumstances. 

[Robbie]

I'm used to being veggie now, Sririam but I do appreciate it when others take the trouble to cater for me.  At lunch time everybody else ate what I ate with their roast meat but there was a lot of it just for me and I was quite touched by my individual gravy.
Just woke up fancying a drink of water, wide awake now so decided to check in hence correction of spelling in previous post.

[Sriram]

Here are some more western veggie dishes...

https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/vegetarian-family-classics

[Rhiannon]

One of my daughters has become a veggie, it is one her fads, hopefully she will soon grow out of it, as usually happens. Until then she can sort out her own meals on the occasions she visits us.

Unpleasant.

[Rhiannon]

What is unpleasant?

Your post. I hope that it doesn’t accurately reflect your view of your daughter and her decision.

[Rhiannon]

It reflects my views exactly, she has had fads all her life, which never last. Her husband and kids are fed up with her latest one.

She’s an adult. It may or may not be a ‘fad’ but she is free to make her own choices. As for refusing to cook for her, don’t get that at all. Don’t you ever eat a meat free meal?

[Sriram]

One of my daughters has become a veggie, it is one her fads, hopefully she will soon grow out of it, as usually happens. Until then she can sort out her own meals on the occasions she visits us.

Many people are becoming vegetarians world over because of health reasons, animal rights or for spiritual reasons. These are normally well considered decisions and though they may occasionally falter,  they are unlikely to go back entirely to their original meat diet.

Why do you 'hope' that she will grow out of it?

[Rhiannon]

Here are some more western veggie dishes...

https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/vegetarian-family-classics

In all recipes that use traditionally use mince I use a couple of cans of brown lentils and in ones that use beef chunks I use canned mixed beans. Cheap, full of flavour and healthy, and we eat well. My lentil shepherds pie recipe is up on the recipe section I think.

[Rhiannon]

Don't worry she will be taken out for meals by my husband when she next puts in an appearance. I dislike cooking and only do my regular meals, whoever visits these days.

So you aren’t aware that you would benefit by not eating meat with every meal?

[Rhiannon]

I didn't say I ate meat at every meal. Anyway what I eat is entirely up to me, just as what you eat is entirely up to you.

Indeed. But if you enjoy meat free eating I fail to see why you won’t cook those meals when your daughter visits rather than forcing her to bring her own food.

It is incredibly disheartening to have something you want to try dismissed as a ‘fad’ by people who could be supportive instead. No wonder your daughter often ends up abandoning her choices - assuming you are accurate in that description of her.