Worship

[Gonnagle]

Dear Susan,

Fair enough, sorry if I offended.

Gonnagle.

[BeRational]

Dear Susan,

Is there a opposite to the word "evolving" anyway, whether you like it or not, everytime you help a fellow human being you Worship the Father.

But then, I like wee Albert who takes it one step further.

Widening our circle of Compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

Gonnagle.

I do not worship your mythical father as I am not insane.

I help others as I empathise with them and may need help myself one day.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

Sorry if I offended, my apologies.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Berational, Susan and Rhiannon,

You have never helped your neighbour, you have never given to charity, you have never felt compassion for the poor, you have never tried to ease another human beings suffering.

Our Lord Jesus tells us how to Worship the Father, but if it eases your conscience or you would rather not associate with the Christian faith, then I think it was Confucius who first promoted the Golden Rule.

Gonnagle.

You re a very nice man, Gonners, so you see a god of love and you believe that all loving acts come from him. That simply isn't true though. I don't find it offensive that you suggest otherwise, it just isn't true. As BeRat says, it is empathy that makes us do what we do.

[Rhiannon]

Hi everyone,

What is worship?  Why do we worship certain gods and deities?

Some religious people may think that we should worship only certain deities and not others. While certain other religions may worship any deity.

The philosophy behind worship is that ...when we worship something we become humble and we build a faith and connection with the unseen  power that is behind our life. It is not really about the deity that we worship. The reaction within us and the mental changes that happen are more important than the object we worship. 

This is why in Hinduism we are allowed to worship any deity we want. Different members of a family may have different preferred deities, what we call Ishta devata. The important point is that regardless of which deity we worship the reaction within us is the same and the same faith is built up in us that controls our lower self and helps us develop spiritually.  Many Hindus visit churches, mosques and gurudwaras....and for them Jesus or Moses or  Mohammad are no different from Hindu sages or Mahavira or the Buddha.

In Jainism and Buddhism, worship was not encouraged in earlier times, but in course of time the emotional needs of people have made them worship Mahavira and Buddha themselves.  Nothing wrong with that. It is natural and inevitable. 

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

Christianity isn't so different - you only need to look at the beliefs of Christians here to see that they believe in different gods that they think of as one God - some, like Gonners, have a lovely, loving, just god, others have a god who judges and hates. In some ways Christianity is just an umbrella term.

[BeRational]

Dear Berational,

Sorry if I offended, my apologies.

Gonnagle.

I do not need to think some mythical father will be pleased with my actions,  I did it because it helps my neighbour and friends.
If you do it because you think some overlord will be pleased with you, then you are doing it for the WRONG reason.

[SusanDoris]

Dear Susan,

Fair enough, sorry if I offended.

Gonnagle.

Offence NEVER taken!!!

[Rhiannon]

I do not need the think so easy mythical father will be pleased with my actions,  I did it because it helps my neighbour and friends.
If you do it because you think some overlord will be pleased with you, then you are doing it for the WRONG reason.

I think what Gonners is saying (because his faith wasn't so different to mine when I was a believer) is that all loving acts are an act of worship because all loving acts come from God. It's not about pleasing god as such, it is about doing what comes from knowing God's love.

Apologies if I'm wrong there, Gonners.

[BeRational]

I think what Gonners is saying (because his faith wasn't so different to mine when I was a believer) is that all loving acts are an act of worship because all loving acts come from God. It's not about pleasing god as such, it is about doing what comes from knowing God's love.

Apologies if I'm wrong there, Gonners.

Then for me this statement wrong.

My acts owe nothing to leprechauns, angels flying spaghetti monsters or Zeus.

[Rhiannon]

Worship's a funny thing. An awful lot of people seem to do it in one form or another and yet others find it completely mystifying. Perhaps as a social and hierarchical species we (some of us anyway) just naturally feel more comfortable in a pecking order and want to believe there's someone at the top who has all the answers and will look after us - God as tribal chief, I suppose. Most humans seems to want to feel part of a structured group or team with an authority figure at the apex. I never have but then I'm probably a bit weird. As for the Abrahamic God I can't for the life of me fathom how one can relate to, much less love, something that is supposed to be immaterial. Way too abstract for me, like the idea of capital T Truth.

I have done the worship thing and looking back on it now it was like living some kind of weird dream. I'm not really sure how my mind came to believe in it or feel it to be real. Maybe it was having to accept that there was nothing out there that was going to save me that made me wake up. Now I seek communion, not with deity but with nature, allowing myself to be a part of it rather than separate from t, and actually that is what I've always done, I just lacked the way of expressing it before.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

You re a very nice man, Gonners, so you see a god of love and you believe that all loving acts come from him. That simply isn't true though. I don't find it offensive that you suggest otherwise, it just isn't true. As BeRat says, it is empathy that makes us do what we do.

Thank you, but I am no different from any other human being, subject to rage, hatred, envy and jealousy and all the other ills that we humans are subject to, and I am glad to see you are open to discussion and not taking my posts to heart.

But I would take you to task over, "That simply isn't true though" bit, how do you know this, me, I don't have a clue how God works, I simply follow the teachings of Christ, that is about as close as I can get to knowing what God wants or is.

I think what Gonners is saying (because his faith wasn't so different to mine when I was a believer) is that all loving acts are an act of worship because all loving acts come from God. It's not about pleasing god as such, it is about doing what comes from knowing God's love.

Apologies if I'm wrong there, Gonners.

Close enough

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Rhiannon,

Thank you, but I am no different from any other human being, subject to rage, hatred, envy and jealousy and all the other ills that we humans are subject to, and I am glad to see you are open to discussion and not taking my posts to heart.

But I would take you to task over, "That simply isn't true though" bit, how do you know this, me, I don't have a clue how God works, I simply follow the teachings of Christ, that is about as close as I can get to knowing what God wants or is.

Close enough

Gonnagle.

What I should have said is that 'it simply isn't true for me' - in other words, it really isn't why I do things and there's no 'hidden love of god' that is directing my actions in my reality. And I can't try to get to know what god wants, because I don't believe in a god that wants anything.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

Thank you for clarifying but as I have tried so many times on this forum to explain, the nearest can understand what God wants is the Golden Rule, Our Lord Jesus explains it is on a par with the Greatest Commandment, and as I have researched it, it runs through almost every religion and philosophy known to man, it is the nearest I can come to finding out a truth, not the truth but a truth.

Gonnagle.

[BeRational]

Dear Rhiannon,

Thank you for clarifying but as I have tried so many times on this forum to explain, the nearest can understand what God wants is the Golden Rule, Our Lord Jesus explains it is on a par with the Greatest Commandment, and as I have researched it, it runs through almost every religion and philosophy known to man, it is the nearest I can come to finding out a truth, not the truth but a truth.

Gonnagle.

The golden rule predates Christianity and is based on empathy.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Rhiannon,

Thank you for clarifying but as I have tried so many times on this forum to explain, the nearest can understand what God wants is the Golden Rule, Our Lord Jesus explains it is on a par with the Greatest Commandment, and as I have researched it, it runs through almost every religion and philosophy known to man, it is the nearest I can come to finding out a truth, not the truth but a truth.

Gonnagle.

And that is true for you and that's fine. It just doesn't work for me, and it doesn't feel right when others project that only what I do.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

True for me! which bit, what God wants or the Golden Rule?

Dear Berational,

Thanks, just spent ten minutes reading about one facet of empathy, do you think we can smell someones pain,

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/time-travelling-apollo/201610/i-feel-your-pain-literally?collection=1095904

I wonder if those scientists smelt the mices pain ( mices or mice )

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Rhiannon,

True for me! which bit, what God wants or the Golden Rule?

Gonnagle.

What do you think?

Although I think that the Golden Rule does need certain qualifications. It doesn't work without forgiveness, for example. Then there's the way that beliefs are used to justify prejudice and hate - you know, like those who say it is loving to tell gay people that they are sinners on the basis that they would want there own sin pointed out to them. There's also the assumption that we *know* what is right for someone else based on our own experiences, preferences and knowledge, and that simply isn't the case. It can often justify unnecessary meddling. The road to hell...

[BeRational]

Dear Rhiannon,

True for me! which bit, what God wants or the Golden Rule?

Dear Berational,

Thanks, just spent ten minutes reading about one facet of empathy, do you think we can smell someones pain,

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/time-travelling-apollo/201610/i-feel-your-pain-literally?collection=1095904

I wonder if those scientists smelt the mices pain ( mices or mice )

Gonnagle.

It's a balance. You can have competing issues where you need to find the best path.

One principle is least harm.

[Rhiannon]

It's a balance. You can have competing issues where you need to find the best path.

One principle is least harm.

Agreed.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

The God bit, fair enough, but I am heartened by the fact you and Berational are open to discussing the Golden Rule, there are so many sides to it, yes I think we do need forgiveness, and as you mention finger pointing, well that is also covered by Our Lords teachings ( I am a Christian ) but I also think, just like Berational we need empathy, also Compassion, Love, then there is also the question about treating your neighbour as you would like to be treated, can you love others if you do not love yourself.

Is loving yourself a bit narcissistic, or is it simply being comfortable in your own skin, being okay with your baggage.

The Golden Rule opens up so many avenues of discussion, even that word Love is very open, hard love, tough love, parental love, a child's love, falling in love, unconditional love.

But maybe I am over thinking the whole thing, Berational mentions least harm ( that is a Pagan rule, right? ) is it as simple as that?

Gonnagle.

[Bramble]

I have done the worship thing and looking back on it now it was like living some kind of weird dream. I'm not really sure how my mind came to believe in it or feel it to be real. Maybe it was having to accept that there was nothing out there that was going to save me that made me wake up. Now I seek communion, not with deity but with nature, allowing myself to be a part of it rather than separate from t, and actually that is what I've always done, I just lacked the way of expressing it before.

Worship seems to reinforce boundaries (self vs other) whereas communion dissolves them. Mainstream religion tends to emphasise with the former (worshiper vs God as a separate being) in contrast to the less popular mystical traditions which seek dissolution. People mainly seem to want to reify their sense of identity, hence the appeal of worship I guess. You're not going to have everlasting life if you've dissolved!

[BeRational]

Dear Rhiannon,

The God bit, fair enough, but I am heartened by the fact you and Berational are open to discussing the Golden Rule, there are so many sides to it, yes I think we do need forgiveness, and as you mention finger pointing, well that is also covered by Our Lords teachings ( I am a Christian ) but I also think, just like Berational we need empathy, also Compassion, Love, then there is also the question about treating your neighbour as you would like to be treated, can you love others if you do not love yourself.

Is loving yourself a bit narcissistic, or is it simply being comfortable in your own skin, being okay with your baggage.

The Golden Rule opens up so many avenues of discussion, even that word Love is very open, hard love, tough love, parental love, a child's love, falling in love, unconditional love.

But maybe I am over thinking the whole thing, Berational mentions least harm ( that is a Pagan rule, right? ) is it as simple as that?

Gonnagle.

The golden rule is nothing to do with Christianity.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Rhiannon,

The God bit, fair enough, but I am heartened by the fact you and Berational are open to discussing the Golden Rule, there are so many sides to it, yes I think we do need forgiveness, and as you mention finger pointing, well that is also covered by Our Lords teachings ( I am a Christian ) but I also think, just like Berational we need empathy, also Compassion, Love, then there is also the question about treating your neighbour as you would like to be treated, can you love others if you do not love yourself.

Is loving yourself a bit narcissistic, or is it simply being comfortable in your own skin, being okay with your baggage.

The Golden Rule opens up so many avenues of discussion, even that word Love is very open, hard love, tough love, parental love, a child's love, falling in love, unconditional love.

But maybe I am over thinking the whole thing, Berational mentions least harm ( that is a Pagan rule, right? ) is it as simple as that?

Gonnagle.

I know from experience that being in love with someone who cannot treat themselves with love, compassion and acceptance only leads to deep unhappiness because they can't believe enough to love you back. Maybe loving oneself is a lifetime's work but I think you are right, it is just a self acceptance, a looking in the mirror and going, 'I'm ok'. It's not narcissism, I've had a narcissist in my life too and they are terrifying and damaging.

I think one concern that I have with trying to love people is that in trying to help we can sometimes cock it right up. Least harm might be the right thing to do sometimes.

Wiccan do the 'harm none' thing. I do the 'muddle through and screw up sometimes but generally do ok' thing.

[Rhiannon]

Worship seems to reinforce boundaries (self vs other) whereas communion dissolves them. Mainstream religion tends to emphasise with the former (worshiper vs God as a separate being) in contrast to the less popular mystical traditions which seek dissolution. People mainly seem to want to reify their sense of identity, hence the appeal of worship I guess. You're not going to have everlasting life if you've dissolved!

Yes, if worship buys everlasting life then there is an appeal there. But I don't mind losing my self. If my immortality is just to dissolve into what I came from (and I accept that may well be nothingness) and my physical reality is made into other stuff then that is lovely and simple and has a gentleness to it.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

The golden rule is nothing to do with Christianity.

The Golden Rule has everything to do with Christianity, it is where it starts, if you believe in Christ and his teachings, but I have already explained this and if you don't believe in Christ then that is fine, if you follow another path, then more power to the path you are on.

Gonnagle.