The Kirk are doing it better

[bluehillside Retd.]

Rhi,

I'm not sure I agree, the Catholic church isn't established but nevertheless various archbishops pop up on the news, as does the Pope. Religion doesn't happen behind closed doors, it gets taken into the workplace, schools, the pub. It is our business if they treat people unfairly and discriminate.

ad referred to "the church" rather than to the Catholic church specifically, but I think we're on the same page nonetheless.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Us and Them eh, that's sinister............... also the workplace, schools, the pub etc are places of secular homophobia.

For instance the penchant of young people for prefacing the unsatisfactory with the word Gay cannot be laid at the door of any church... This is after all a secular society.

Endorsed by an establishment organisation with the authority that comes from its status in society. That's the point: if the church can discriminate against gay people, then hey, what's the big deal if someone does it in their private life?

Contemptible innit.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Another ''science is not atheism'' piece , Hillside?

What's your thinking here - that if you tell the same lie that I do think science does equal atheism often enough eventually someone will believe it? That you'll believe it?

What?

Either way, that's not what my post was about at all.

If science does not equal atheism why are you contrasting science with religion?

I didn't.

[Rhiannon]

Rhi,

ad referred to "the church" rather than to the Catholic church specifically, but I think we're on the same page nonetheless.

Ad-o only recognises the Orthodox Church.

I think we are pretty much in agreement on this; my point was that even if the CofE was disestablished the various denominations still have influence and while that is the case then what they do is the business of society as a whole.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Rhi,

Ad-o only recognises the Orthodox Church.

I think we are pretty much in agreement on this; my point was that even if the CofE was disestablished the various denominations still have influence and while that is the case then what they do is the business of society as a whole.

And therein lies the problem with privileging the beliefs of the religious over just guessing. The moment we allow that their "faith" means they actually know something then who's to say what they don't know? Discriminating against gay people? Yeah, why not - after all they have "faith" don't they?

[Rhiannon]

Rhi,

And therein lies the problem with privileging the beliefs of the religious over just guessing. The moment we allow that their "faith" means they actually know something then who's to say what they don't know? Discriminating against gay people? Yeah, why not - after all they have "faith" don't they?

Yes, and it's a very intoxicating message when the bloke down the pub or the nice lady from accounts tells you how to be saved. And then if they helpfully point out the wrongness of gay relationships, in a very loving way of course, they must be right...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Rhi,

Yes, and it's a very intoxicating message when the bloke down the pub or the nice lady from accounts tells you how to be saved. And then if they helpfully point out the wrongness of gay relationships, in a very loving way of course, they must be right...

Quite. Is there anything more sanctimoniously bullshitty than, "hate the sin, love the sinner" I wonder? How fucking dare they.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ad,

Incidentally, I've just noticed your tag line: "Rationalism leads to Protestantism leads to atheism.".

Let's hope so eh?

[Robbie]

Yes, and it's a very intoxicating message when the bloke down the pub or the nice lady from accounts tells you how to be saved. And then if they helpfully point out the wrongness of gay relationships, in a very loving way of course, they must be right...

Nice lady from accounts would not be allowed to say such things at work.  Strictly verboten.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Robinson,

Nice lady from accounts would not be allowed to say such things at work.  Strictly verboten.

I know. She'd still be the bigger "sinner" though in my rarely humble opinion.

[ad_orientem]

ad,

Incidentally, I've just noticed your tag line: "Rationalism leads to Protestantism leads to atheism.".

Let's hope so eh?

No need to hope. It's already the case, ever since the Reformation.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ad,

No need to hope. It's already the case.

Sadly, not yet it isn't. Eventually maybe it'll be a last man standing situation: secular survival or nuclear armageddon likely triggered by religious wing nuts convinced they're right because that's their "faith".

[ad_orientem]

ad,

Sadly, not yet it isn't. Eventually maybe it'll be a last man standing situation: secular survival or nuclear armageddon likely triggered by religious wing nuts convinced they're right because that's their "faith".

They happen to be Protestants with their raptures etc.

[Rhiannon]

Nice lady from accounts would not be allowed to say such things at work.  Strictly verboten.

Depends on when and where (over a nice sandwich from Pret, maybe? How about inviting the office junior over for dinner with the family?) and whether the person being evangelised objected - not all do.

[Rhiannon]

They happen to be Protestants with their raptures etc.

And Putin?

[Rhiannon]

Rhi,

Quite. Is there anything more sanctimoniously bullshitty than, "hate the sin, love the sinner" I wonder? How fucking dare they.

Yep, always thought this whatever side of the fence I was on.

[ad_orientem]

And Putin?

He's trying to prevent WWIII. NATO is the problem.

[Rhiannon]

He's trying to prevent WWIII. NATO is the problem.

Because they are Protestants?

[ad_orientem]

Because they are Protestants?

Mainly. But that's not quite what I meant.

[Robbie]

Depends on when and where (over a nice sandwich from Pret, maybe? How about inviting the office junior over for dinner with the family?) and whether the person being evangelised objected - not all do.

That's a point, hasn't been allowed in the workplace for years (which is right in my opinion), out of work hours is different.  You're right that not everyone would object, they might like discussing religion like wot we do here.

[floo]

He's trying to prevent WWIII. NATO is the problem.

YE GODS!

[Rhiannon]

That's a point, hasn't been allowed in the workplace for years (which is right in my opinion), out of work hours is different.  You're right that not everyone would object, they might like discussing religion like wot we do here.

And some are open to evangelising and some are vulnerable to it. But that's a whole other thread....

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue, ( Happy St Georges Day )

Happy to if you want me to, but it has everything to do with the price of fish. If religious texts help you think about the human condition then well and good. When they assert factual truths that cannot be shown to be the case with logic or evidence though (eg, “God”) then in that respect they are at least mistaken.

Tell you what old son ( and I say this tongue in cheek ) you would make a bloody great politician.

Anyway lets recap for the children, I am trying to explain a little about where Karen Armstrong is coming from regarding the subject of Myth, so for the third ( and final ) time, please give me your favourite all time fictional book, the one that left you thinking, God I never thought of that, or, the one that took you out of yourself, the one that made you look at life a little differently, the one that made you ponder on life, love and whatsitallabout.

Gonnagle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Gonners,

Tell you what old son ( and I say this tongue in cheek ) you would make a bloody great politician.

How very dare you Sir! 

Anyway lets recap for the children, I am trying to explain a little about where Karen Armstrong is coming from regarding the subject of Myth, so for the third ( and final ) time, please give me your favourite all time fictional book, the one that left you thinking, God I never thought of that, or, the one that took you out of yourself, the one that made you look at life a little differently, the one that made you ponder on life, love and whatsitallabout.

Well, first up the books that had that affect weren't non-fiction at all. I remember reading "On Liberty" as a teenager for example, and thinking "now this makes perfect sense to me". Still does in fact. It's a bit like skiing lessons (work with me here): the first one (or few) have a huge effect, and, no matter how many you have after that those further lessons change you in ways that are incremental in comparison.

Something like that anyway.   

As for fiction, again funnily enough the books I would describe that way were all ones I first read early on. Here are some of them though:

To Kill a Mockingbird

Strait is the Gate

East of Eden

Brave New World

The Great Gatsby

One Hundred Years of Solitude

Flaubert's Parrot

1984

A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

The Scarlet Letter

Under the Volcano (dear god what that book did to me as a young teenager!)

Earthly Powers (my desert island pick)

I've also found Douglas Dunn's collection of poems written after the death of his wife Elegies to have reached out to me over the years.

Mind you, ask me tomorrow and the list will be completely different of course. I claim nothing for any of these books by the way, other than that they happened to collide with my journey through life in ways that have stayed with me.

Will that do?

 

 

[jeremyp]

Not at all.

You deny that Jesus said he came not to abolish the law or that you said the law was dead?